Have to be "that guy"

[MikaelTyson]

So, those of you that have made the egregious error of being my Facebook friend know my stance on government and over zealous law enforcement.

I know that a lot of you on here, including guys who are it would call my friends have transitioned from the military into a civilian career in law enforcement.

It is to you fellows that I ask the following question. What is your opinion on the Kelly Thomas murder?

I am not asking in an official capacity and I promise on the USMG code of brotherhood that I will not publicly share your responses without your consent, but I really need to know.


Sent from the Batcave

[Rickety Rob]

You do post a lot about law enforcement on FB lol

[RogueScot]

I just watched the surveillance video. This is interesting since I am currently studying use of force options in my classes. It seemed excessive to me and escalated quickly. The first police officer seemed to be being aggressive from the beginning. He had his baton out, twirling it. The other thing that stuck out to me was he kept putting his hand on his gun.

[A1000YrdStare03]

Alright Mike, something tells me you are directing this question at me. I didn't hear about this case until you mentioned it so I watches the entire video instead of reading some biased article written by some reporter who has zero experience in anything.

First off I have to correct you. This case was not a murder. For a crime to be a murder you have to have intent to kill. Do you think these cops intended to kill this guy? I don't think so!!
Now, I normally wouldn't Monday-morning quarterback another cops actions but I will in this case for educational purposes. I saw things in the video these guys did right and a couple of things they did wrong. Or, should I say, I wouldn't have done it!! Let's start from the beginning. Kelly Thomas, even though calm, he was not cooperating at all. Said he didn't speak English, wouldn't give his name, and giving deceptive answers as to where he was and where he is going. Also, he wasn't randomly stopped, it was because of several 911 calls that brought these cops there. He was suspected of committing a burglary. Here is where I would have handled it different. While Kelly was calm I would have gone over to him and told him that while we are determining who you are I am going to cuff you for your safety, and mine. You are not under arrest at this time, when we are done I will remove the cuff and send you on your way. It doesn't work all the time but with this guy I thing it would have because he was listening a little. If they did that all of this would have been avoided and Kelly would be alive today. Another mistake was by the fat cop. He escalated the situation unnecessarily. No need to try to dominate the guy who is half your size, cursing at him, telling him your going to slam your fist in his face. He was sitting down, his hands were visible, just stand there and watch him while your partner does his checks. When the fight started Kelly would not give up his hands. Even though he keeps saying, alright, I'm sorry dude. All those guys couldn't get his arms behind his back. Now this is what killed him, at least I think, without seeing the autopsy report. One of the officers whacked him over the head with a flashlight. Big mistake!! Split him open and blood is all over everyone. I would have lost it on that guy. You show up to help me out and you do that, get the fuck out of here!! Also, you cannot put your knee in someone's back especially when your a fat fuck to begin with. Kelly kept saying he couldn't breath, and he probably couldn't because of all the weight on his back. That is a training issue. In NY we are taught not to do that. I have a ton of experience fighting guys on drugs and I can tell you first hand, the batons, and pepper spray is useless. They feel no pain.
So in conclusion yes, mistakes were made on all parts. If Kelly just followed directions he would be alive today. If the fat cop wasn't such a hot head asshole, Kelly would be alive today, if the cop didn't strike Kelly over the head with a flashlight he might be alive today. And if they all didn't pile up on his back he would still be alive today.
When you work as a police officer you work on behalf of the city which you are employed and act in good faith as part of that job. The jury was right to acquit these officers because they acted in good faith, even though they made mistakes. It was an unfortunate incident!! I feel sorry for Kelly Thomas because it was avoidable!!

[MikaelTyson]

Rob, it wasn't directed at you personally, because I know there are other LEO's on here.

I appreciate your insight into it. I also didn't read some slanted puff piece about it. I just watched the video and followed the court case. He did end up dying from a crushed larynx from Ramos being on his back and throat.

Cincinelli openly admitted to and was quoted saying "I smashed his fucking face with my taser handle like 20 fucking times".

I do not for a second believe that those 5 officers could not restrain him without killing him. You can see his size vs. their sizes.


The lack of empathy, regret, and remorse makes me physically ill.


Sent from the Batcave

[A1000YrdStare03]

Rob, it wasn't directed at you personally, because I know there are other LEO's on here.

I appreciate your insight into it. I also didn't read some slanted puff piece about it. I just watched the video and followed the court case. He did end up dying from a crushed larynx from Ramos being on his back and throat.

Cincinelli openly admitted to and was quoted saying "I smashed his fucking face with my taser handle like 20 fucking times".

I do not for a second believe that those 5 officers could not restrain him without killing him. You can see his size vs. their sizes.


The lack of empathy, regret, and remorse makes me physically ill.


Sent from the Batcave

I agree with you Mike, it bothered me too watching it. I have worked with people who are heavy handed, but being in narcotics I have also had to fight with a my fair share of drug addicts. There size is deceiving. People high on drugs don't feel pain, add adrenaline and it is very hard to pull someone's hands behind there back. The cops in that video were not trained well at all, and the fat one doesn't know how to talk to people. He escalated the who thing and it was unnecessary. When you haven't done that kind of work it's hard to put yourself in there shoes. He tries to intimidate Kelly instead of just talking to him like a human being. If you noticed he was talking nice in the beginning he got Kelly to be somewhat compliant. He should have recognized that and continued on that route it would have ended better. Don't judge what happened by the audio alone. I have had perps yell to me they are not resisting and saying they give up as they were trying to pull my Glock from my holster.
What happened to Kelly was definitely excessive. Once he went down from the baton strikes those batons should have been used to move is arms behind his back instead of continuing to strike him. Also, Mike, try to understand this. When you work in bad areas as a PO you deal with the worst kind of people all the time, and get treated like a piece of shit always. You tend to loose your compassion for people. It happened to me. So bad I took myself off the street. My wife told me I'm so angry all the time. I would snap at her, and my kids all the time. I had to change what I was doing. I recently read some of my college papers from when I was young and I thought like you. After being in LE the past 14 years and seeing the other side I better understand the problem. I hope this helps you better understand anyway!!

[MikaelTyson]

It does, Rob and it says a lot about your character that you had the wherewithal to remove yourself from the streets once you realized your empathy had deteriorated.

I know it's next to impossible to maintain level headedness when you are dealing with the worst of society, but when that becomes a part of you even when dealing with routine shit, that's when the problems begin.


Sent from the Batcave

[Port66]

I left that case alone myself, I do enjoy the things you post on facebook and the LEO's. My dad is a good cop, but my uncle was not, they never got along for 30 years on the force.

[MikaelTyson]

I left that case alone myself, I do enjoy the things you post on facebook and the LEO's. My dad is a good cop, but my uncle was not, they never got along for 30 years on the force.

It is a true yin yang type thing.


Sent from the Batcave

[Gunnut88]

These are the cops that give all of them a bad name. Actions like this by LEO is exactly why in some areas there is such a violent hatred for cops. They should have been hung out to dry, found guilty and executed in the town square. Severe yes, maybe getting close to cruel and unusual possibly but until we start get heavy handed against police brutality it will never end and will only result in more violence against cops. It is getting to the point where a large number of the population, me included, does not trust law enforcement and cases like this are exactly why. When ever I OC I also carry a digital tape recorder because I don't trust the cops not to violate my rights. That is pretty sad coming from me having grown up with my dad and my grandpa both of whom were cops. We have started to have quite an influx of gangs here in Billings but I still watch the cops more than I do anyone else because the cops here are not exactly known for their friendliness.

[Port66]

These are the cops that give all of them a bad name. Actions like this by LEO is exactly why in some areas there is such a violent hatred for cops. They should have been hung out to dry, found guilty and executed in the town square. Severe yes, maybe getting close to cruel and unusual possibly but until we start get heavy handed against police brutality it will never end and will only result in more violence against cops. It is getting to the point where a large number of the population, me included, does not trust law enforcement and cases like this are exactly why. When ever I OC I also carry a digital tape recorder because I don't trust the cops not to violate my rights. That is pretty sad coming from me having grown up with my dad and my grandpa both of whom were cops. We have started to have quite an influx of gangs here in Billings but I still watch the cops more than I do anyone else because the cops here are not exactly known for their friendliness.


yeah billings and great falls have gotten bad.

[RogueScot]

Yeah, walk a mile in a another man's shoes. You don't know what they go through day in and day out. But, I stand by what I said about the fat cop. He was in an aggressive posture throughout. I haven't had any baton, or asp courses yet. It seemed the guy didn't want his face in the pavement and was trying to stay upright. Were you saying there was a way to bring him to the ground with the baton? Could you do that without breaking his arm in the process?

[smoke]

ok, anyone got a link to this video. I want to see what your talking about now.

[RogueScot]

Sure. Here...

http://www.ocregister.com/video/v/1626615556001/crime-fullerton-kelly

[MikaelTyson]

Yeah, walk a mile in a another man's shoes. You don't know what they go through day in and day out. But, I stand by what I said about the fat cop. He was in an aggressive posture throughout. I haven't had any baton, or asp courses yet. It seemed the guy didn't want his face in the pavement and was trying to stay upright. Were you saying there was a way to bring him to the ground with the baton? Could you do that without breaking his arm in the process?

Scot, no one here is saying we are against the good cops. I understand that it is hard to walk in you guys shoes. My brother is a cop, my adopted brother is a cop. I'm not speaking completely out of my ass. But if you put a uniform on, you have to be willing to take on that burden. You have to be better than human nature dictates. Being a cop shouldn't be a privilege, it should be a burden and a public service. Badges don't grant extra rights and no man should put himself above another. All of us on here took an oath to uphold the constitution, and I know that we all took it seriously.

But how can we claim to uphold the constitution when we jail men for smoking a plant in their own homes? Who is the government to tell people what to put in their bodies. Or that they have to wear a seatbelt, or a motorcycle helmet? It is the theft of individual liberty.


Sent from the Batcave

[RogueScot]

You misunderstand me. I'm not a cop. I am, however, currently attending classes for armed private security and armed private investigator which are done in my state under the auspices of the Council of Law Enforcement. And, my instructor is a retired Highway Patrol Lieutenant and instructor. He teaches more than the required training. The "walk a mile" comment was meant to say I realized I didn't know what they dealt with every day, but I can tell you my instructor would be absolutely beside himself to see the fat cop brandishing his baton and continually putting his hand on his gun while interviewing someone. The rest is just questions because I am trying to learn.

[smoke]

Wow, after watching the video, I want to know, what was the probable cause they had to detain this person.

IMO, this man was half naked, obviously presented no clear and present danger to them, yet they used excessive physical force in an attempt to subdue him, after a little trash talking. LEOs should have training to deal with this type of attitude, and should have training to recognize symptoms of a person that "isn't all quite there".

Perhaps I'm missing some context, but from what i've seen, i'd give both of the LEOs life in prison.

[MikaelTyson]

I am a private security officer in Pennsylvania. I take on armed and unarmed gigs.

An important thing to remember about this confrontation is that Kelly Thomas was a professionally diagnosed schizophrenic. Who knows how many voices he was hearing while receiving "orders" from Ramos.

Another thing to think about, is that while they were restraining him, he was clearly panicking. If you listen to the audio, he is either the best actor in LA, or he was in full panic mode. I have claustrophobia, and I know for a fact that if 2 men were attempting to restrain me in that manner, I would be fighting and struggling as well.


Sent from the Batcave

[MikaelTyson]

Wow, after watching the video, I want to know, what was the probable cause they had to detain this person.

IMO, this man was half naked, obviously presented no clear and present danger to them, yet they used excessive physical force in an attempt to subdue him, after a little trash talking. LEOs should have training to deal with this type of attitude, and should have training to recognize symptoms of a person that "isn't all quite there".

Perhaps I'm missing some context, but from what i've seen, i'd give both of the LEOs life in prison.

The police were called by a local restaurant saying that Thomas was jiggling car door handles in the parking lot of their restaurant. Could be true, could be false. It was never confirmed.

He was a schizophrenic.


Sent from the Batcave

[smoke]

The police were called by a local restaurant saying that Thomas was jiggling car door handles in the parking lot of their restaurant. Could be true, could be false. It was never confirmed.

He was a schizophrenic.


Sent from the Batcave


What I don't get is, he was being completely passive, until the cop, begins antagonizing him. At what point does it go from upholding the law, to harassment and assault?

[MikaelTyson]

That's exactly why I started this thread. Those cops were put on trial, but were acquitted of all charges this past week.

2 days ago, protestors were arrested for "failure to disperse". What a fucking crock.


Sent from the Batcave

[RogueScot]

BTW, there's also a much longer, unedited version of that video.

[MikaelTyson]

And it's just as disgusting.


Sent from the Batcave

[MikaelTyson]

Look guys, I'm not attempting to invalidate anyone's opinion here. I'm just asking you to look at the hard truth. Police brutality and militarization are spinning way out of control. We took an oath to uphold the constitution and defend against enemies foreign and DOMESTIC! I'm not asking you to follow blindly. All I am asking is that you do your own research. A war is coming, and it will be the people who crave freedom vs. an oppressive government. I'm just trying to find out what side we all will stand on. I have counted you all my brothers. I would hate to have to count some of you as my enemies in the future. I know this may seem a little heavy for this forum, but these are the times we live in.


Sent from the Batcave

[jxspyder]

I don't think anyone who's commented is ignoring the truth. Just pointing out minor differences in interpretation of those facts based on their experience.

I do think "you either agree with me completely or you're the enemy" is a bit too heavy for the forums though.

Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw

[iamthesgt]

I'm with you almost 100%. The militarization of police and the resulting brutality (I'd say they're heavily linked) are completely unacceptable.

However, I see no reason to bring up even the notion of anyone on here being an enemy. If someone completely denies police brutality, they're not my enemy, they're just naïve. The enemy are the actual bad cops, not the good cops, not the random civilians, not those who are uninformed.

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX on Verizon Wireless

[MikaelTyson]

Sam, I agree with you, but I feel it is just as naive to believe that you can just "follow orders" and everything will be ok.

Naïveté is ok until you follow orders that leads to a free mans grave.

That man is my enemy, whether he makes that choice through true evil or idiocy.


Sent from the Batcave

[MikaelTyson]

I don't think anyone who's commented is ignoring the truth. Just pointing out minor differences in interpretation of those facts based on their experience.

I do think "you either agree with me completely or you're the enemy" is a bit too heavy for the forums though.

Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw

I don't want people to agree with me completely, Dave. I want people who will arrive at conclusions independently. I am merely stating my stance on the issue. Any man who would steal the liberty of another truly is my enemy. And if we cannot discuss these things here, amidst our brethren who have sworn to protect these liberties, then where can they be discussed?


Sent from the Batcave

[iamthesgt]

But those who are naïve are not directly trying to steal liberty. We should be more focused on converting them to the realistic view than on being antagonistic to them. That won't win anything.

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX on Verizon Wireless

[Gunnut88]

That may work for awhile longer but the time is fast approaching where it will be much to late for talking and converting other people. There will come a time, not long from now, where we are all going to have to make the choice of whether or not we do what the government trained us to do and what side we do it for. I am now working on training my wife in CQB tactics because I think she needs to be prepared. Look at the Secession movement that gained so much traction last year. Look at the poll last year that said 29% of the population felt a revolution was going to be necessary in the next 10 years. Look at that gentleman in Oregon who had is 2nd Amendment Rights taken away by the VA because his wife handles the finances. There is war in the air and we can either get heavy handed, maybe even downright brutal, when things like this happen and maybe stop the war before it happens, or get ready, get our edge back and be ready to suit up cuz shits gonna hit the fan if WE THE PEOPLE don't do something to stop it.

[MikaelTyson]

But those who are naïve are not directly trying to steal liberty. We should be more focused on converting them to the realistic view than on being antagonistic to them. That won't win anything.

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX on Verizon Wireless

I completely agree, Sam. That's exactly why I started this hot button thread.


Sent from the Batcave

[MikaelTyson]

That may work for awhile longer but the time is fast approaching where it will be much to late for talking and converting other people. There will come a time, not long from now, where we are all going to have to make the choice of whether or not we do what the government trained us to do and what side we do it for. I am now working on training my wife in CQB tactics because I think she needs to be prepared. Look at the Secession movement that gained so much traction last year. Look at the poll last year that said 29% of the population felt a revolution was going to be necessary in the next 10 years. Look at that gentleman in Oregon who had is 2nd Amendment Rights taken away by the VA because his wife handles the finances. There is war in the air and we can either get heavy handed, maybe even downright brutal, when things like this happen and maybe stop the war before it happens, or get ready, get our edge back and be ready to suit up cuz shits gonna hit the fan if WE THE PEOPLE don't do something to stop it.

You and I are on a similar page. I just hope we have more time to bring people to the cause of freedom.


Sent from the Batcave

[jxspyder]

I don't want people to agree with me completely, Dave. I want people who will arrive at conclusions independently. I am merely stating my stance on the issue. Any man who would steal the liberty of another truly is my enemy. And if we cannot discuss these things here, amidst our brethren who have sworn to protect these liberties, then where can they be discussed?


Sent from the Batcave

You're going beyond simply discussing something, though, with your comments are going more towards drawing line's in the sand. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just making an observation.

Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw

[Gunnut88]

But isn't it about time we drew a line in the sand, a line that we say cannot be crossed. That if it is crossed then we know what must be done at that point. The sooner we draw that line the sooner we can be prepared for whatever is to come. It sucks ass that this is where we are but this country that all of us love has gone to shit right in front of our eyes. Shit is going to hit the fan if we don't do something to stop it. The sooner we as a country say enough is enough don't go any further, the sooner we can get shit fixed before things get out of hand. If things keep going the way they are we are, in my opinion, less than 2 years from a 2nd Amendment solution. I don't want that I am pretty damn sure none of us want that. We have seen war seen and felt the effects well after we leave the suck and I know damn well none of us want our families to see it or see just what we are capable of. But that is where we are headed if we can't stop it.

[A1000YrdStare03]

Alright, first off Kelly was not just some innocent civilian. He was getting arrest for the possessing stolen property and possibly burglary which is a felony. Those cops could have handled the arrest better as I explained earlier but they were doing there job. Someone mentioned they should be executed, that is the kind of shit that makes cops brutal. To every bad police story there are hundreds of positive ones. But they are never mentioned, why not???
Someone asked if you can take someone down with an asp. Not without the risk of them grabbing the baton. But once they are down you can place the baton through the armpit and use leverage to pull the arms behind there back.
Bottom line is no one likes there rights to be takes away. Cops are human beings to not just a badge, they feel anger, fear, hate, all that. Those cops were wrong because they let anger get the best of them. It's happened to me and it would happen to every one of you because you are human.

[MikaelTyson]

Alright, first off Kelly was not just some innocent civilian. He was getting arrest for the possessing stolen property and possibly burglary which is a felony. Those cops could have handled the arrest better as I explained earlier but they were doing there job. Someone mentioned they should be executed, that is the kind of shit that makes cops brutal. To every bad police story there are hundreds of positive ones. But they are never mentioned, why not???
Someone asked if you can take someone down with an asp. Not without the risk of them grabbing the baton. But once they are down you can place the baton through the armpit and use leverage to pull the arms behind there back.
Bottom line is no one likes there rights to be takes away. Cops are human beings to not just a badge, they feel anger, fear, hate, all that. Those cops were wrong because they let anger get the best of them. It's happened to me and it would happen to every one of you because you are human.

I agree that it could happen to me, letting my anger get the best of me, but I haven't placed myself in a position of forced authority over other men.

When cops do good, why should we go out of our way to recognize it? I don't fellate the Wendy's drive through guy when he gets my order right, but I do get pissed when he gets it wrong.

At the end of the day, if you're going to put on a uniform, you don't get to fuck up. You better be god damn sure that you are right. And if you do fuck up, you better be prepared to have death threats flung at you for stealing liberties and murdering innocent people. And say what you will about Kelly Thomas having stolen property on him, does that warrant a trial less death sentence at the hands of 5
Jack booted thugs, who now suffer absolutely no consequences to their actions?


Sent from the Batcave

[A1000YrdStare03]

I agree that it could happen to me, letting my anger get the best of me, but I haven't placed myself in a position of forced authority over other men.

When cops do good, why should we go out of our way to recognize it? I don't fellate the Wendy's drive through guy when he gets my order right, but I do get pissed when he gets it wrong.

At the end of the day, if you're going to put on a uniform, you don't get to fuck up. You better be god damn sure that you are right. And if you do fuck up, you better be prepared to have death threats flung at you for stealing liberties and murdering innocent people. And say what you will about Kelly Thomas having stolen property on him, does that warrant a trial less death sentence at the hands of 5
Jack booted thugs, who now suffer absolutely no consequences to their actions?


Sent from the Batcave

By no means am I saying Kelly Thomas deserved to die. I mentioned his crimes because apparently everyone has no problem putting themselves in his shoes but can't put them self in the officers shoes. I mentioned the recognition thing because it plays a factor into why an officer loses his empathy towards people. When your work is only criticized and never appreciated trust me, it has an affect on your moral. Let's put it in a military standpoint. Let's say you served tour after tour in Iraq, and Afghanistan. You lost close friend in combat then come home feeling what you did was for the good of our country. Except,when you step off the airplane you get spit on and called a baby killer and a murderer!! Don't you think you might feel a tad bit of resentment towards people for what you sacrificed. If you say you wouldn't then you are not human!!
So, by your definition, once you put on a uniform you have no right to any human emotion what so ever. I'm telling that that is not reality. So by those standards then I guess the Marines who pissed on the dead Taliban bodies deserve to be hung, right! Or, what about the Marines who burned the bodies of dead Taliban fighters. We should be outraged by that, right, because the media said we should!! Even though they were ordered to do it in order to prevent disease.
Are you really going to compare a Wendy's drive through employee to that of a police officer? Stop, that's apples and oranges Mike!! Tell me the last time a Wendy's employee was killed while handing an order out the window. The stress levels of the two don't even come close to comparing.
You say those officers suffer no consequences for their actions!! I'm telling you your wrong. They have to live with the fact that their actions killed someone. I am going to link another story to this post explaining what I mean.

[A1000YrdStare03]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/nypd-investigates-officers-taser-death-naked-brooklyn-man-article-1.321677

Here is a link to something that happened here in NYC. Read it then tell me what you think should happen to the officers involved. After you comment I'll tell you what happened to them!!

[MikaelTyson]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/nypd-investigates-officers-taser-death-naked-brooklyn-man-article-1.321677

Here is a link to something that happened here in NYC. Read it then tell me what you think should happen to the officers involved. After you comment I'll tell you what happened to them!!

It sounds like a lack of common sense. It's not like people don't know what happens when you send a 5,000 volt current through someone. They completely lock up. The man was obviously on some kind of drug. Both the guy who gave the order and the guy who fired the taser should have lost their jobs. The one who killed him should have been charged with manslaughter at the very least. It's hard to say without all the evidence, that's only one preliminary article.


Sent from the Batcave

[A1000YrdStare03]

It sounds like a lack of common sense. It's not like people don't know what happens when you send a 5,000 volt current through someone. They completely lock up. The man was obviously on some kind of drug. Both the guy who gave the order and the guy who fired the taser should have lost their jobs. The one who killed him should have been charged with manslaughter at the very least. It's hard to say without all the evidence, that's only one preliminary article.


Sent from the Batcave

You made my point for me. It was a lack of common sense. He let his anger make a choice for him. He probably got pissed off because this guy was not listening to his instruction then was swinging that stupid light bulb at the officers on the fire escape. He a quick bad judgement call which resulted in the death of this emotionally disturb person. He was going to lose his job and was going to be indicted. Because it made the news the NYPD wrote him off, completely disregarding his 20 + years of faithful service. He was so overwhelmed with regrets and grief he went to his precinct and broke into someone else's locker to get their firearm and ate a bullet. Leaving his two daughter without a farther. Now do you think that is justice?? If you say yes then I'm done with this conversation!! My point is dealing with the fact that your mistake caused someone else to lose there life is not an easy thing to live with. I would take a jail cell over that any day.

[MikaelTyson]

I don't think that's justice. If I did, I'd be no better than what I am railing against. He obviously had remorse and regret. I'm not after the guys who fuck up and then take their commupence with honor. I'm after the guys like Ramos, who after being accused of murder, started selling affliction style t-shirts that said "accused" on the back. Fucking disgusting.


Sent from the Batcave

[A1000YrdStare03]

Well l don't know much of what this Ramos guy is doing at all. If he has no remorse for what happened then he has serious issues!! But let's be honest. There are assholes everywhere. In every job, in every walk of life. Shit, I had to deal with a hand full of them commuting into work in this snow storm this morning!!

[MikaelTyson]

Well l don't know much of what this Ramos guy is doing at all. If he has no remorse for what happened then he has serious issues!! But let's be honest. There are assholes everywhere. In every job, in every walk of life. Shit, I had to deal with a hand full of them commuting into work in this snow storm this morning!!

I know bud, the difference is, the assholes you had to deal with aren't remorseless killers funded by the taxpayer.


Sent from the Batcave

[KaNtSt0PMeH]

I think this is an agree to disagree topic on some points. Just like any career field there are shit sticks in all walks of life. Is it unfortunate that cops may kill unwarranted criminals, sure. But do I want all cops to go away no... its about educating both sides of the law. If you do not understand your own unalienable rights should you fault someone who exploits them to gain the upper hand in the situation... should we blame ignorance? If an officer needs an education in the law, why not cooperate and take his ass to court and sue the shit out of him. I believe its title 1857 or something like that where if at any time someone feels like their rights have been violated they can pursue legal action all day. People are killed everyday. Its hard and through years of desensitization it makes it hard for me to care about individuals if I am being completely honest. I'm a utilitarian when it comes to law enforcement.

[MikaelTyson]

The problem with suing an officer who goes outside the law is that he gets to keep his job, and the taxpayers foot the bill for the lawsuit.


Sent from the Batcave

[A1000YrdStare03]

I know bud, the difference is, the assholes you had to deal with aren't remorseless killers funded by the taxpayer.


Sent from the Batcave

Actually that's not true. 90% of the people I've arrested were on public assistance which is tax dollars. Talk about being remorseless!!! Talk about a complete waste of money!! I deal with these people every day walking to my office which is in a complete shit hole of an area. If a dumb shit cop getting a bullshit 40,000 a year pension bothers you. What about the billions of dollars our government wastes on on a daily basis. How did you feel when Obama gave $535 million to Solyndra Solar Co then they filed for bankruptcy shortly after. Where is the outrage???? There is none, people are to concerned about the dumb shit cop making $40,000 because the media says we should. Meanwhile our government wastes billion. Operation Fast and Furious!!! No outrage????? We have far bigger problems then to worry about this idiots pension which he can't live on anyway.

[KaNtSt0PMeH]

Lol don't get Mike started on Obama. Hahaha

I think Mike's basic thought process and forgive me for speaking for you Mike. Is to return to that thought process where people look to cops for safety. I'll admit when I see a cop these days I do not get that feeling of protection. I either look at how fast I'm driving or whether or not I'm wearing my seat belt. A lot of the police are blue collar folks but the image of the police force I have been around is slightly tarnished. Now I'm not saying you don't bust your ass Rob. Just giving you public perception. I know that always have to defend one's actions can be a pain in the ass... lol

[A1000YrdStare03]

Lol don't get Mike started on Obama. Hahaha

I think Mike's basic thought process and forgive me for speaking for you Mike. Is to return to that thought process where people look to cops for safety. I'll admit when I see a cop these days I do not get that feeling of protection. I either look at how fast I'm driving or whether or not I'm wearing my seat belt. A lot of the police are blue collar folks but the image of the police force I have been around is slightly tarnished. Now I'm not saying you don't bust your ass Rob. Just giving you public perception. I know that always have to defend one's actions can be a pain in the ass... lol

I am actually surprised to hear that. I work in an area where the public perception of police is bad but it's extremely violent here. Cops here are rough. As a cop you need an element of fear because without it you wouldn't survive!! I have stopped suspected criminals and when I got out of the car they threw there weapons right on the ground. Thank god for that because the alternative means I don't go home to see my kids or I am forced to use deadly physical force on them.
It just surprises me that you guys are all over the US and all have this fear of police. Listen, I have had bad experiences with police growing up, I think everyone has.
I think most people don't understand when a cop is being a hard ass while dealing with you, it's because he is afraid of you. When they don't know who you are, can't see your hands, that fear rises. If you just follow their instruction that will deescalate that fear and the safer the encounter will be for everyone, even if the stop is nonsense. You can file a complaint, or sue later if you feel it was unjust. But people don't due that because of their own egos. As I said before, no one likes there rights being taken away. But you have to be smart about it because you don't know what your dealing with, and neither does the cop!! Cops who worked in rough areas for a long time have a hard time turning off that hard ass mentality because it kept them alive for years!!

[RogueScot]

I think there is a lot of validity in what you are saying Mike, but I also agree with Robert. To me this is a straight up improper use of force issue that could be attributed to poor training, or neglecting your training. Ramos, if that this the larger cop, should be held accountable I think. He handled it completely wrong. I visited with some of my instructors about this today and they agreed. They also agreed with the way you would have handled it Robert. I think the proper use of force continues to be an ongoing issue with police forces throughout the nation. Is it improper training? Is it fear? Here is my question to you LEO's -- If a suspect is complying, hands up, behind his head, etc., why does he need to be hammered into the ground by three officers and then held with your knee on the back of his neck while being handcuffed? Is it situational? Based on where you are? They type of stop? I've seen this over and over on shows like COPS and wondered if it was really necessary.

[A1000YrdStare03]

Good question Chris and the best way I can explain that is, it depends on the situation. If the suspected crime is a violent crime like a robbery with a weapon. I will take him down hard even if he is complying. Reason for that is this: action is quicker than reaction. If this guy has a gun on him why would I wait for him to draw on me because by the time my brain absorbs what's happening and I reach for my weapon, I will be shot several times before I even get my firearm out. Did you know that a man with a knife can kill from 12 feet away if your firearm is holstered. Try it with your wife, or a friend. Have them put there hand over your hand and tell them to only move there hand when you move, then try to slap there hand before they can move it. They will not be able to move there hand fast enough because action is quicker than reaction.

Now on the other hand. If I'm stopping someone for a bunch of 911 calls for let's say trespassing. Then as long as this person is complying there is no need to slam him to the ground.

Another situation would be what if the crime is minor, and not violent but I know the guy and he has a violent history. An officer will come in contact with criminals they have dealt with before, it's not unusual. I handle that carefully. I may approach the guy calmly but my partner will stay off to the side uninvolved with his firearm out of the holster but hidden behind his leg. He is not interacting with the guy at all, I am, but he is backing me up. If this guy see my partner with his gun out I deescalate it by saying, listen, your dealing with me, he is backing me up, we know you, and are aware of your history. But this is not serious so just relax and keep your hands visible and everything will be fine.

All these situations are best handled with experience but a lot of times you get an inexperienced, untrained officer handling these things and what you get is a tragedy like Kelly Thomas.

[Gunnut88]

I agree that anyone has the potential to lose their cool given the right circumstances. That is why I never tried to become a cop. I know my temper and I know my limits. I also agree that alot of this stems from poor training and lack of experience. NONE of that should ever be a shield from the consequences of your actions. All the evidence in this case supports a conviction for murder at the very least manslaughter. The ONLY reason they were not found guilty is because they are cops. That most definitely is not justice. Big fucking whoopty doo if they have to deal with the fact that they killed someone. All of us that spent time in a warzone deal with that on a daily basis, its rough but we get through it. That is not enough for these guys. They deserve prison time at the very least but in my opinion true justice would be public execution at the hands of this mans family. I have the utmost respect for cops but they should be afraid of the people when they fuck up like this. We pay their paychecks and they should answer to us. Getting heavy handed against police brutality and against police violating their oath to defend people rights is the ONLY way to stop it.

For example when I went to jail in CO for disorderly conduct the only thing I did was cuss some dumbass banger out. He threatened to pull a knife on me and I told him I would slit his throat with his own knife. I walked away after that when I realized the punk was all talk and no bite. He waved the cops down and they arrested me for disorderly conduct offensive language. They would not even listen when I told them that he had threatened to pull a knife on me. The only thing they cared about was arresting me for cussing out some dumbass piece of shit. Even after reporting them to their superiors they were never disciplined. They completely got away with violating my rights.

[A1000YrdStare03]

You say you respect cops but judging by what you wrote it seems you actuality hate them because you had a bad experience. Read what you wrote again!! You actually have a deep rooted dislike to all cops with statements like that. Any cops guilty of brutality should be executed!! Wow!! That's a little bit extreme don't you think.

[iamthesgt]

You say you respect cops but judging by what you wrote it seems you actuality hate them because you had a bad experience. Read what you wrote again!! You actually have a deep rooted dislike to all cops with statements like that. Any cops guilty of brutality should be executed!! Wow!! That's a little bit extreme don't you think.

I do...kind of.

Anyone (cop or civilian) guilty of murder or manslaughter resulting from gross negligence or carelessness (e.g. DUI, abuse) should be executed. (Caveat: only when there is clear evidence of the result - via video, multiple eyewitnesses, several corroborating forensic evidence classes)

Any cop guilty of brutality not resulting in death should lose their badge. And if you cause physical harm, jail time.


I do think that the current situation stems from many angles, and thus is not totally "bad cops" fault (though they are responsible for their actions, as everyone should be):

Over-militarization of police, from heavy loadouts, to the overuse of SWAT teams, to (IMO) lack of training/escalation of force principles
Hostile attitude (mainly politically, but from LE sometimes especially in large metro areas with a liberal slant) towards self-defense/concealed carry/castle doctrine/etc
In many cases, violations of civil rights/LE agencies operating as moneymakers

I'd say that #1 somewhat stems from increased crime, which somewhat stems from #2 (which ironically somewhat stems from increased crime).

[JTFRYE]

well this escalated quickly

[A1000YrdStare03]

I do...kind of.

Anyone (cop or civilian) guilty of murder or manslaughter resulting from gross negligence or carelessness (e.g. DUI, abuse) should be executed. (Caveat: only when there is clear evidence of the result - via video, multiple eyewitnesses, several corroborating forensic evidence classes)

Any cop guilty of brutality not resulting in death should lose their badge. And if you cause physical harm, jail time.


I do think that the current situation stems from many angles, and thus is not totally "bad cops" fault (though they are responsible for their actions, as everyone should be):

Over-militarization of police, from heavy loadouts, to the overuse of SWAT teams, to (IMO) lack of training/escalation of force principles
Hostile attitude (mainly politically, but from LE sometimes especially in large metro areas with a liberal slant) towards self-defense/concealed carry/castle doctrine/etc
In many cases, violations of civil rights/LE agencies operating as moneymakers

I'd say that #1 somewhat stems from increased crime, which somewhat stems from #2 (which ironically somewhat stems from increased crime).

The point is Sam, these guys were indicted for there crimes. Went to trial, and a jury of 12 civilians, (or a judge if it was a bench trial) found them not guilty. That means all the evidence was gone over, all the video, all the facts revealed, and they were found not guilty. They will still be fired probably. Sued civilly also.
Here is a news alert: there is no justice in our justice system. I personally have had many criminals I've locked up walk after trial. And for all the cop haters, for every cop who wins in trial and is not punished criminally, I can give dozens of example of cops that do go to jail for there crimes. Do I need to post links?

[Gunnut88]

Pretty much exactly what you just said Sam. If the brutality results in death then yes execution is the answer. We all know that when you put on a uniform whether it be a military uniform or a police uniform you are held to a higher standard. The penalty for fucking up and being a dumbass should reflect that. Losing your temper in a bad situation is not an excuse for murder. We all know what would have happened to us if any of us had lost our temper and killed an innocent while deployed, this is no different.

[Timmy_2_Tones]

Wow, I love to see threads like this, a thriving heated conversation is always good.

I would like to interject a few opinions into this just so that I can say I was here.

So it is understood, I am from Salt Lake City, Utah. Our crime rate is non-existent. Be it from some damn fine police officers or the massive amount of do-goody Mormons we have in this state, the worst we get is a Meth-head that steals a car. I am not a LEO, I wanted to when I got home but I was not able to because I have a TBI and moderately severe PTSD. I do not come from a long line of LEO's, my dad was an alcoholic and a construction worker, he switched between the two regularly, and the woman that gave birth to me is useless. I have had many situations with cops, good, bad, and drunken, I am a firm believer that a LEO is only going to react to you, (s)he is not "Out to get you."

First, I do not fear, hate, disrespect, overly-respect, or out right defend LEO's unless there is a good reason to do so. I am ever vigilant, side-effects of some situations I found myself in whilst deployed to our favorite sand-box. I am always watching LEO's and civilians alike. I know when I see something out of place or just outright wrong. Law Enforcement example, the Police Officer I saw today that was driving and fucking with his laptop while doing 45 MPH down State Street here in Salt Lake City. In my opinion that was wrong, and he should be re-educated on proper safe driving procedures. Civilian Example, the ass-hat that was sitting next to me at my Son's student of the month assembly, he HAD to have more room then EVERYONE else in the building and proceeded to make an issue out of it. I re-educated him quickly in the gymnasium by telling him not to be "that guy" that was going to get his teeth knocked in if he made another scene in the middle of something for 1st graders. The point of this is that everyone makes mistakes, everyone creates problems, everyone has a shitty attitude, and everyone deals with it differently. I see a cop breaking a traffic law and I shake my head, I could call the station and lodge a complaint but that is honestly not going to fix the problem. They will respond with "We will ensure that this doesn't happen again Mr. Cannon." Next week he will be eating a Big-Mac and messing with his computer while doing 45 and hit a car killing two people and my complaint didn't do dick.

The solution is not to focus on repairing this poor behavior it is to prevent it in the first place. People (LEO and civilian alike) need to be taught what it means to respect others, and how to behave in civilized society, beating someone into submission with a baton is not right anyway you look at it, but neither is being a conceited prick to a cop. You can teach a Gorilla how to pick up a barrel and put it in the corner, but you can't teach him how to not be a stupid ape. If he has an inability to learn the fundamental tasks needed for a certain lifestyle, don't allow him into that lifestyle.

Second, and this is the whole reason I am writing this, cops get a bad wrap. We, citizens of (Fill in the blank), have appointed institutions to keep the nice comfortable lives that we live, nice and comfortable. These institutions deal with the impoverished, the addicts, the thieves, and the crazies for us so that we don't have to experience the parts of reality that we don't want to. We pay these men and women to act on our behalf, and they do it understanding that it is a thankless job. Much like all of us have done, we put on a uniform, we fought the bad guy, we kept him off of American soil so that our families and friends could sleep in their nice warm beds and enjoy their nice hot meals. We don't ask for thanks, and neither do LEO's, we do things that are horrible in order to protect the ones we love, just like LEO's, and we did it because it needed to be done. When you put on a uniform, and specifically that of a Soldier, Airmen, Marine, or Sailor (I still giggle over Seaman) or a LEO, your life is different, you will find yourself in a situation that you could have never imagined possible, and you will possibly even need to find a way to ensure that you live even if that means that someone has to die.

What does that all mean? We have had to deal with our choices, LEO's have to deal with theirs. We can not assume that just because we see, hear, or read something that we fully understand what is going on. I am not defending the fat piece of shit in that video, he was way out of line, I am saying that it is not our place to predict what happened. One thing I have come to understand in my life is that a 35 minute video, even as graphic and informative as it was, never tells you the full story. Something has always happened before, and something will always, inevitably, happen after. Media, even when it is a crystal clear story, will find a spin in it, that is what they do.

So, in place of declaring war on the ignorant and damming every cop that made a mistake, find a solution. Make that solution the biggest damn squeaky wheel in the world so that it is implemented, be the fix, and don't just perpetuate the problem by pointing fingers.

As usual, I reserve the right to deny anything that I have posted, I am not always convinced that it was me writing it. And if you are just going to "argue to argue" against what I have said take it to someone that will care enough to respond to it.

[KaNtSt0PMeH]

I am actually surprised to hear that. I work in an area where the public perception of police is bad but it's extremely violent here. Cops here are rough. As a cop you need an element of fear because without it you wouldn't survive!! I have stopped suspected criminals and when I got out of the car they threw there weapons right on the ground. Thank god for that because the alternative means I don't go home to see my kids or I am forced to use deadly physical force on them.
It just surprises me that you guys are all over the US and all have this fear of police. Listen, I have had bad experiences with police growing up, I think everyone has.
I think most people don't understand when a cop is being a hard ass while dealing with you, it's because he is afraid of you. When they don't know who you are, can't see your hands, that fear rises. If you just follow their instruction that will deescalate that fear and the safer the encounter will be for everyone, even if the stop is nonsense. You can file a complaint, or sue later if you feel it was unjust. But people don't due that because of their own egos. As I said before, no one likes there rights being taken away. But you have to be smart about it because you don't know what your dealing with, and neither does the cop!! Cops who worked in rough areas for a long time have a hard time turning off that hard ass mentality because it kept them alive for years!!

Don't get me wrong. I am not against the police I am about 80% with my criminal justice degree to possibly pursue this once I get out.

I see Mike's perception at times. I see your perception as well.

It's exactly what society creates. When you immerse yourself in situations you become aware of it's ever-growing aspect. Take for example, I all of sudden have a glitch in my video game and I do a search on the internet all of sudden this glitch is a deep-rooted development issue that is going to take months to fix. There are thousands of people on the internet complaining about this glitch and yet, the people I play with have no idea what glitch I'm talking about. Why? Because everything affects different people differently. If you have bad experiencing as you surround yourself with people with those bad experiences you begin to realize the issue is much larger than yourself, however 10 minutes prior to the situation you were none the wiser. Ignorance to somethings is bad.... do I feel like I want to know all the bad that goes on the world... fuuuuuck no. I'm good. People going to fuck up and make mistakes. That is the reason why the Human Factor is invovled and why we haven't gone to the Judge Dredd aspect of law. Regardless... I know my explanation is weird but that's my stance... I am not trying to become that cop that saves the planet... just want a fall back should I need to support my family.

[A1000YrdStare03]

Thank you Jared for understanding my point. Military men and women, and LEO are human and are going to make mistakes. And YES, the problem stems from ignorance!!! I was only posting here to try to help non LEO better understand the officers perspective.
It's just mind boggling to me how a military person, who has fought for democracy, can basically just disregard due process. Let's just execute them publicly!! WTF!!! And who decides that without due process?? Don't they realize that with that attitude they are just as wrong as the cops charged with the brutality!! Maybe we should have kept Saddam Hussein alive to run this country. I mean, its obvious it's a dictatorship they want, along with public executions. Fuck why stop there, why not be-head them!!!

[Gunnut88]

No what I want is for cops to be held responsible for their actions. If that means 1800's style justice of hanging in the town square so be it. Watching that video there is plenty of proof to support at the very least a manslaughter conviction if not a murder conviction. First of all the fat fuck waving his baton around and 2) continuously putting his hand on his sidearm, repeatedly making threats of violence when none were needed. I definitely don't care about the perspective of these cops because it doesn't matter there is absolutely ZERO justification for their actions.

I for one cannot believe that you are defending these pieces of shit. Incidents like this are the sole reason why there is such a distrust of law enforcement and why cops face so much violence against them. You speak of due process where exactly did Kelly Thomas get the due process he deserved. He didn't because 5 dumb-asses on a power trip engaged in police brutality and he died because of it. I have ZERO sympathy for any cop that engages in this kind of behavior and I hope to whatever god there may be that when all is said and done these guys and there families are on the street with nothing but the clothes on their back. Maybe then justice will be served. Shit we have all been through worse than what these cops went through and none of us needlessly killed innocents because we lost our tempers.

If you get to a point where you can no longer handle these situations as a cop without resorting to brutality then it is probably time to step away or be ready to face the consequences.

[BilgeRatBilly]

No what I want is for cops to be held responsible for their actions. If that means 1800's style justice of hanging in the town square so be it. Watching that video there is plenty of proof to support at the very least a manslaughter conviction if not a murder conviction. First of all the fat fuck waving his baton around and 2) continuously putting his hand on his sidearm, repeatedly making threats of violence when none were needed. I definitely don't care about the perspective of these cops because it doesn't matter there is absolutely ZERO justification for their actions.

I for one cannot believe that you are defending these pieces of shit. Incidents like this are the sole reason why there is such a distrust of law enforcement and why cops face so much violence against them. You speak of due process where exactly did Kelly Thomas get the due process he deserved. He didn't because 5 dumb-asses on a power trip engaged in police brutality and he died because of it. I have ZERO sympathy for any cop that engages in this kind of behavior and I hope to whatever god there may be that when all is said and done these guys and there families are on the street with nothing but the clothes on their back. Maybe then justice will be served. Shit we have all been through worse than what these cops went through and none of us needlessly killed innocents because we lost our tempers.

If you get to a point where you can no longer handle these situations as a cop without resorting to brutality then it is probably time to step away or be ready to face the consequences.

Here's the problem with your argument. You keep saying the guy who died didn't get his due process, and the police officers should be executed. I watched the whole video because this debate is fascinating to me, and I saw about 10 min worth of time (I watched yesterday so if I'm off a few min give me a break) where he could have stopped resisting and de-escalated the situation himself. I'm all for not having your rights violated by law enforcement or government, but if I have a (let alone 5) cop on my back, I'm gonna quit resisting and do whatever the fuck they tell me to do because I want to go home myself. Watch the video and for a big chunk of it they are hidden by a tree. He keeps saying he gives up, but clearly he didn't. Now this guy was clearly on some kind of drug and the officers could probably tell, so who knows what a whacked out dude on drugs is going to do if he gets the chance. You're trying to apply logic and perfection to an imperfect situation.

I'm not going to defend the fat cop being a douch bag from the get go, he could have handled it much differently and POSSIBLY avoided the whole issue. But at some point this guy should have stopped resisting and done what he was told, if he was too whacked out to do that, maybe your pointing the finger in the wrong direction. If these cops were tried by a jury of civilians and found not guilty of a crime, they probably know something you don't. I'm all for stopping police brutality and all that and I don't doubt there are situations where LEOs abuse their power, but I don't understand your beef over cops who were tried for the death of a suspect and found not guilty.

That's just my 2 cents.

[iamthesgt]

Thank you Jared for understanding my point. Military men and women, and LEO are human and are going to make mistakes. And YES, the problem stems from ignorance!!! I was only posting here to try to help non LEO better understand the officers perspective.
It's just mind boggling to me how a military person, who has fought for democracy, can basically just disregard due process. Let's just execute them publicly!! WTF!!! And who decides that without due process?? Don't they realize that with that attitude they are just as wrong as the cops charged with the brutality!! Maybe we should have kept Saddam Hussein alive to run this country. I mean, its obvious it's a dictatorship they want, along with public executions. Fuck why stop there, why not be-head them!!!

Whoa whoa whoa. I was not saying disregard due process at all. Just having a more open mind to the possibility of giving the death penalty, when they are guilty. I don't have a problem with public executions at all though. That's the whole point of executions - as a deterrent and a punishment.

[A1000YrdStare03]

First off, by no means have I ever defended these officers actions. If you read all my post, which you obviously didn't, I said it should have been handled differently. They were absolutely wrong for what they did. I just have respect for the process, where as you don't because you didn't agree with the outcome. As Timmy stated in his post. If they were acquitted by a jury of the people then obviously there is more to the story than your seeing on the video. You said they got off only because they were cops. My point is your wrong!! They got off because a 12 person jury representing the people acquitted them. You also feel that the higher standard only applies to military people, and I'm telling you that's not true either. You base that off this case, in which justice failed. But I can add link after link of cops doing fucked up shit and being found guilty in trial, and going to jail for the rest of there lives. You don't know about it because you don't care enough to do the research, and your not in law enforcement. Well I have done both so I feel I am in a better position to see that through my own experience that both military, and LE are held at a higher standard. I have seen several cops go to jail for something they did wrong, and there sentence was much longer than that of a civilian doing the same crime. The judge always gives the reason for the sentence is they are held to a higher standard.

I'm not trying to change anyone mind. Everyone has the right to there own opinion. I said in an earlier post that a lot of times there is no justice in our justice system. But does that mean every time you don't agree with a verdict the solution is they should have been execution. That's just ignorant!! That is not a solution to the problem it only adds to it.

[Rickety Rob]

I stayed away from this thread long enough and i'm seeing tension between people that shouldn't happen.

I understand each and everyone of you are entitled to your own opinion but there is NO need to have an argument over this subject.

If i'm not mistaken, this thread was about Mike clarifying why he was making so many posts on FB that dealt with police enforcement and if you were a friend you would understand why he did so.

With that said, I honestly think this should become a dead subject before someone gets offended in a way that the person says something to really piss the other person off.

Lets face it folks, the more and more this convo goes on. The more it brings up different issues that relate to the original subject.

So lets drop it and talk about something else.

I don't know why this thread wasn't closed before things started to heat up.

It's like talking about politics...you're never going to prove your point to someone who believes in the opposite of what you believe in.

[KaNtSt0PMeH]

Actually the initial question was what our stance was on a certain case. I see your point Rob but I don't think anyone's feelings are getting hurt. Its a debate for sure but if anyone has a serious issue with this topic... please report it to a mod and keep the discussion on track.

[MikaelTyson]

I'm not mad at Rob or anyone else on here. You guys are my friends.

I'm just trying to point out that 9 times out of 10, in cases of excessive force or abuse, the entire incident occurs because LEO's were enforcing laws that were unconstitutional to begin with. And my argument is that if they were truly "good cops" they would not be complicit in a system that steals the liberty of the individual.

I can see that that viewpoint is not a popular one.

I'll see you guys in other threads and in game :)


Sent from the Batcave

[Rickety Rob]

Not to sound like an ass but debate, don't argue.

Reading this thread i've notice anger in a few peoples posts and those who chime in only anger them more.

So again, if you're going to debate, debate.

Don't let another person piss you off.

BOOM!

[MikaelTyson]

Rob, I will drag my testicles across your face.


Sent from the Batcave

[Rickety Rob]

Rob, I will drag my testicles across your face.


Sent from the Batcave

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/d5/d5c03e4aca37ef7ffffc1c1f4a03250dcec51e4cef3fa60ce78afb1f3e0a542f.jpg

[iamthesgt]

What??? Rob is being sensible? Must have been hacked

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX on Verizon Wireless

[ssandersjr]

Rob, I will drag my testicles across your face.


Sent from the Batcave

Lol that reminded of this


6652

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[MikaelTyson]

Lmao sanders


Sent from the Batcave

[MARDIGRA21]

First off, I'm not a LEO. I'm a Virgo because I was born in September. That is all lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jxspyder]

Actually the initial question was what our stance was on a certain case. I see your point Rob but I don't think anyone's feelings are getting hurt. Its a debate for sure but if anyone has a serious issue with this topic... please report it to a mod and keep the discussion on track.

Basically this. I've been lurking and reading throughout the whole discussion. If someone is bothered by a post, there's a report feature there for you.

Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw

[MikaelTyson]

I don't recall anyone making personal attacks against another member. I know people are being passionate in their posts, but I don't think anyone is really outside the realm of reason on either side.


Sent from the Batcave

[A1000YrdStare03]

I'm not mad at Rob or anyone else on here. You guys are my friends.

I'm just trying to point out that 9 times out of 10, in cases of excessive force or abuse, the entire incident occurs because LEO's were enforcing laws that were unconstitutional to begin with. And my argument is that if they were truly "good cops" they would not be complicit in a system that steals the liberty of the individual.

I can see that that viewpoint is not a popular one.

I'll see you guys in other threads and in game :)


Sent from the Batcave

I am not angry with anything anyone has posted. I may not agree with everyone but I think I am the only active LE who is posting so I'm just trying to help people better understand that side. But I must say, all this banter proves my point. Everyone here is human, and they all have their own prejudices, anger, fear, etc..everyone can see how encounters can get heated real quick when you feel your in the right.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean Mike? Police brutality happens in all different types of encounters. From serious crimes, to complete nonsense stops. What exactly do you mean 9 out of 10 brutality cases are from enforcing unconstitutional laws?

[MikaelTyson]

I am not angry with anything anyone has posted. I may not agree with everyone but I think I am the only active LE who is posting so I'm just trying to help people better understand that side. But I must say, all this banter proves my point. Everyone here is human, and they all have their own prejudices, anger, fear, etc..everyone can see how encounters can get heated real quick when you feel your in the right.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean Mike? Police brutality happens in all different types of encounters. From serious crimes, to complete nonsense stops. What exactly do you mean 9 out of 10 brutality cases are from enforcing unconstitutional laws?

Rob, I'll have to dig up some links but because I am visiting with family I don't have time right this second, but I will ASAP when I get home.

Basically I'm talking about the cop who 2 years ago tased the 8 month pregnant woman who ripped up a ticket he wrote for her parking in a handicapped spot at a walgreens. The government had no business forcing that Walgreens to have handicapped spots to begin with.

Also any person who has ever been jailed for smoking a joint, not wearing a seatbelt/ motorcycle helmet and not paying the fine AKA government extortion. I will get links for you ASAP.


Sent from the Batcave

[A1000YrdStare03]

Alright that's cool Mike, take your time. I'll gladly discuss how those stops go bad. You are adding a lot of different issues but that's cool.

[RogueScot]

One thing I think doesn't help in these cases is the piling on. But, who wouldn't come to the aid of a comrade in distress? Wouldn't you come running with guns blazing, or fists bashing, if one of your guys called for help? I would. This started with two LEO's. When they couldn't get it under control, I'm sure a call went out and the other LEO's responded to help. They probably didn't have any information other than an officer needs assistance call. They roll up and see them struggling on the ground with a suspect and the jump in to help. It goes south from there. Emotions are high, adrenalin is up, but the officers responded in good faith. I don't believe they showed up to kill a guy. Yes, they made a bad situation worse. It just got out of hand. That is why there were aquitals. I believe the blame for the escalation lays with the original officers.

[A1000YrdStare03]

One thing I think doesn't help in these cases is the piling on. But, who wouldn't come to the aid of a comrade in distress? Wouldn't you come running with guns blazing, or fists bashing, if one of your guys called for help? I would. This started with two LEO's. When they couldn't get it under control, I'm sure a call went out and the other LEO's responded to help. They probably didn't have any information other than an officer needs assistance call. They roll up and see them struggling on the ground with a suspect and the jump in to help. It goes south from there. Emotions are high, adrenalin is up, but the officers responded in good faith. I don't believe they showed up to kill a guy. Yes, they made a bad situation worse. It just got out of hand. That is why there were aquitals. I believe the blame for the escalation lays with the original officers.

I agree with you completely!!

[BilgeRatBilly]

I agree with you completely!!

Me too. Well said.

Sent from my GS4 from my van down by the river.