Ron Paul's March on the White House

[iCharlieF0xtr0t]

Hey guys as some of you guys know I'm a big Ron Paul supporter and many of you guys are aswell Im going to foward you guys this information. Ron Pauls military supporters on Feb 20th will be marching from the washington monument to the white house in formation. Families are welcomed as well all you need is proof of service ei. DD214's, ID, Meat Tags etc. UOD is going to be appropiate civilian clothing and you may wear your uniform at your own discretion. Ill provide the facebook group link. Its a monday but ill be taking the day off and driving down. If anyone else wanted to Carpool from NJ Tristate area itd b ok.

http://www.facebook.com/events/192677970828185/
2169

[airbornedaddie]

Uniforms are not allowed at political rallies...just for GP


...Participate in partisan political fundraising activities, rallies, conventions (including making speeches in the course thereof), management of campaigns, or debates, either on one’s own behalf or on that of another, without respect to uniform or inference or appearance of official sponsorship, approval, or endorsement. Participation includes more than mere attendance as a spectator.


DOD defines "partisan political activity" as "activity supporting or relating to candidates representing, or issues specifically identified with, national or State political parties and associated or ancillary organizations."

[iCharlieF0xtr0t]

Uniforms are not allowed at political rallies...just for GP


...Participate in partisan political fundraising activities, rallies, conventions (including making speeches in the course thereof), management of campaigns, or debates, either on one’s own behalf or on that of another, without respect to uniform or inference or appearance of official sponsorship, approval, or endorsement. Participation includes more than mere attendance as a spectator.


DOD defines "partisan political activity" as "activity supporting or relating to candidates representing, or issues specifically identified with, national or State political parties and associated or ancillary organizations."


Ik that lol. This is what there saying.
"Active duty troops are invited to participate in full recognition of the regulations regarding political speech. WE ARE NOT encouraging active duty personnel to come in uniform. Each individual needs to use his/ her discretion and weigh the risk of attending this event wearing whatever it is that you decide to wear. Do what your OWN conscious tells you. It is an absurd proposition to say that members of the military supporting candidates in uniform would be construed to represent official positions of the government and rules regarding free speech for members of the military have only been used to silence dissent and keep the true will of the troops from being relevant in the American political discourse. Well, NOT ANY MORE!"

that being said, yeaa i kinda like having my job so im wearin civ

[Khy3eb]

It is an absurd proposition to say that members of the military supporting candidates in uniform would be construed to represent official positions of the government and rules regarding free speech for members of the military have only been used to silence dissent and keep the true will of the troops from being relevant in the American political discourse. Well, NOT ANY MORE!"

Whatever civilian drafted that quote for the event really should pay more attention to military policy; especially when you consider the regulations are pretty clear on this sort of thing. The military is SUPPOSED to be apolitical. It isn't about following our own consciences its about following the rules, which as service members we are supposed to do regardless of our own feelings.

I personally find that poster a little offensive, Rep. Paul is not my choice for the white house and I would consider myself a "troop." It's a little pretentious to presume that Paul has the support of the military, and ultimately it shouldn't matter who the military supports because we will follow all lawful orders from NCA regardless of our personal feelings about who is in office. This is a sad political move designed to move undecided pro-military conservatives to Rep. Paul's side.

[iCharlieF0xtr0t]

I personally find that poster a little offensive, Rep. Paul is not my choice for the white house and I would consider myself a "troop." It's a little pretentious to presume that Paul has the support of the military, and ultimately it shouldn't matter who the military supports because we will follow all lawful orders from NCA regardless of our personal feelings about who is in office. This is a sad political move designed to move undecided pro-military conservatives to Rep. Paul's side.




What actually sparked the events are the claims the mainstream media are reporting. Which is Ron Paul has no support from the soldiers when in actuallity RP has the most support more then any other candidate. It's a statement to the white house and the world saying look we have a voice, because the media and politicians dont represent us accurately. I believe that we all took the oath and swore to the constitution and the politicians we have in the white house and senate are abolishing every aspect of it with wrongfully spying on us, passing the NDAA, starting to censor us. We are losing our civil liberties and if people like us dont take astand we wont have any rights left to protect; regardless of our apolitcal boundaries.

- Also the man planning all this is a retired e6 from the marine corps.

[Khy3eb]

What actually sparked the events are the claims the mainstream media are reporting. Which is Ron Paul has no support from the soldiers when in actuallity RP has the most support more then any other candidate. It's a statement to the white house and the world saying look we have a voice, because the media and politicians dont represent us accurately. I believe that we all took the oath and swore to the constitution and the politicians we have in the white house and senate are abolishing every aspect of it with wrongfully spying on us, passing the NDAA, starting to censor us. We are losing our civil liberties and if people like us dont take astand we wont have any rights left to protect; regardless of our apolitcal boundaries.

- Also the man planning all this is a retired e6 from the marine corps.

It's a common theme throughout America to lay the blame on the politicians for all of our problems, but I personally find that finger pointing to be ignorant and weak. Ultimately politicians are chosen by the American constituency, we put them there and if they're doing such a terrible job then we should also replace them.

Example: Congress hovering around a 9% approval rating isn't a new thing, it's historically been really low -- but why does it continue to be low regardless of the congress in session? Because the American voter is patently uninformed or disinterested, (even though there IS a lot of good research on the subject that would suggest Americans can still make reasonable decisions based on limited information -- If you're interested let me know I'll give you some articles on the subject on public opinion and how it relates to the "American Democracy" [even though, speaking as a political scientist what we have isn't so much a democracy as it is a form of Single Member District representative republic... but THAT's another topic for another time]).

Basically my point is, it isn't the military's place to try to change policy, SAVE for the absolute end of need (a third American revolution). The American people are the ones who should be outraged about all the things you mentioned.

As service members we give up certain rights to guarantee the freedoms of the American people. For example, it might as well be a right to cheat on your wife given from what I've seen of civilian relationships -- BUT the military still tries and relieves Officers and enlisted men on the basis of adultery -- the most recent example I can think of is the Army TRADOC Commander GEN Kevin P Byrnes.

On the same token, we also give up the right to publicly endorse political candidates in uniform.

Also, I know I said civilian when referring to that quote, I just assumed (probably shouldn't have) that someone with military experience would have been familiar with the regulation governing our behavior relative to political candidates (as you, Airborne and myself already were at the start of this thread).

[iCharlieF0xtr0t]

I see where your coming from man but the thing is were not choosing these people to represent us these people are groomed for these positions as adolesents and there has been major election fraud for the past 100 years. The people making the decisions arent the politicians my friend, yes they make some but they ultimately have aseperate agenda, there just puppets in the grand theme of things. We have this false sense of freedom and until recently everyone has bought into it. Many of us are awake of whats actually going on and the proof is everywhere. Hidden in plain sight its just a matter of connecting the dots. I can not tell you things are going on which you in your life appearently have not had experience with yet and there fore will not "buy in" as they say, to what I'm saying youll ultimately have to make the decision for yourself, not me. So I'm going to leave it at that, until you have seen all the facts clear as day and documented like I have.

And I completely agree with you. We should keep apolitical in that sense. But for I am not one to sit and watch as this country goes up in flames like so many have before us in past history. And man trust me I'm not usually so uptight about this shit, its just that I've seen what these people want who have hijacked this country and its going to be the end of us. Just please pay attention man. If you want to know more ill redirect you to a few places but I do not want my position on whats happeneing to have any involvment what so ever

Im just a man who loves this country and its values and wants all of them restored. Thats the reason im perticipating in this, just as a man who happens to serve, but again ill be in civs.

[iamthesgt]

I see where your coming from man but the thing is were not choosing these people to represent us these people are groomed for these positions as adolesents and there has been major election fraud for the past 100 years.

Also, our public education system and the way most children in this country are raised in their homes has been grooming children to make poor decisions, failing to teach them to teach logically, and setting up the system for successive failures. When people cannot be bothered to look at the issues for themselves, and analyze arguments at their base, all that is needed for a candidate to win is some political rhetoric.

[Khy3eb]

Also, our public education system and the way most children in this country are raised in their homes has been grooming children to make poor decisions, failing to teach them to teach logically, and setting up the system for successive failures. When people cannot be bothered to look at the issues for themselves, and analyze arguments at their base, all that is needed for a candidate to win is some political rhetoric.

Rhetoric and money.

And actually, the research suggests that the education of the voting public doesn't really effect their ability to make rational choices at the polls. Two reasons for this, empirical trials have shown that in actuality the American public (as a collective entity) makes rational decisions and the lack of information or the presence of a non-opinion does not effect this (think Law of Large Numbers). Secondly, those Americans who fall at the very bottom of the educational and intellectual pyramid tend to not vote anyway and therefore their opinions don't matter.

In reference to the above I direct you to Ben Page and Robert Shapiro's book The Rational Public.

In reference to what I'm about to say I'll point to the book Controversies in Voting Behavior (Richard G. Niemi and Herbert F. Weisberg; editors).

An important part of the second book is actually that all things being equal candidates with the most money have a serious advantage at the polls versus those candidates with more moderate capital.

@CharlieFoxfrot: Brother, I'm not trying to change your opinions on any candidate. Having said that, I have studied Political Science at the collegiate and graduate level for the better part of the last six years and there is a lot of evidence things are just as they appear to be in America. From someone who has studied the political systems of America and comparatively with regimes (both authoritarian and democratic) in many parts of the world that the perceived hijacking of the American system is actually a more direct representation of what the American people actually want. Having said that, I firmly support your decision to support and vote for any candidate you want for whatever reason you want :) I might not agree with it, but that's the beauty of the democratic (republican) form of government -- its what the majority want, and we might not agree but we can still get along.



Now here is the axe that I'm trying to grind, as a political scientist I consider it a personal crusade to try and influence people to become better educated and aware of political philosophy and political theory (especially when it comes from empirical research). Hence the shoutouts to a couple widely regarded texts above.

[iCharlieF0xtr0t]

I could branch on a number of topics off of everything you just pointed out. But to save time and effort I wont go into it. Im just going to point out that our educational system has programmed us from the beginning to be post industralized and to benefit society basically be factory workers, raise your hand, wait to be told what to do and everything is stuctured limiting the brains actual potential. But again the structure they built has been mastered over thousands of years and is hidden again in plain sight i guess its just a matter of perspective in your case like studyin poli sci you see it differently because its the answers theve given to you, What I'm tallking about in general is how there are multiple blood lines the link 90% of the worlds elite together. The Occult meetings the evil that they do, rape murder adultry. For thousands of years and just until the creation of the internet anyone who has spoken out against them has been killed literally thousands of cases. I mean you tell me what happens to the countless unexplainable things such as CIA planes going down with 400 kilos of Cocaine back in the late 50's to spark the war on drugs and to restrict the american people, or how there are 500 unaccounted children a year when children are taken in to custody of child protective services, or how Bush is related to kerry, cheney, obama, McCain, Perry, Corizine, Royal Family, Head of the world banking. I mean this sytem that they built is meant to be misunderstood and to have simple explainations to try and disprove but theres to much evidence that supports other wise. What is concrete tho is that these people right now are going to lead us to another war in the next 6-12 months. We can't let it happen. Espicaly with these martial law states about to be put in place, Imagine with the NDAA and the powers are government currently have over the people how there censoring the internet, the wide spread fear and panic over terrorism. Imagine a world war with this scenaio Americans are going to be detained and maybe even killed if there was another War just over the fear of homeland security. We cant let this happen. Thats why I can not support any other candidate then Ron Paul.

jumping around alot haha sorry but its hard to lay all the stuff out there theres to much of it.

[iamthesgt]

Studies have been done showing that our education stifles children's development in many ways, including following logical thought processes and creating new ideas. A recent study I just saw said that 98% of toddlers show genius-level (for their age) thought processes but that within 5 years that number falls off a cliff and falls even further after that.

[airbornedaddie]

[QUOTE=iCharlieF0xtr0t;66421]I could branch on a number of topics off of everything you just pointed out. But to save time and effort I wont go into it. Im just going to point out that our educational system has programmed us from the beginning to be post industralized and to benefit society basically be factory workers, raise your hand, wait to be told what to do and everything is stuctured limiting the brains actual potential. But again the structure they built has been mastered over thousands of years and is hidden again in plain sight i guess its just a matter of perspective in your case like studyin poli sci you see it differently because its the answers theve given to you, What I'm tallking about in general is how there are multiple blood lines the link 90% of the worlds elite together. The Occult meetings the evil that they do, rape murder adultry. For thousands of years and just until the creation of the internet anyone who has spoken out against them has been killed literally thousands of cases. I mean you tell me what happens to the countless unexplainable things such as CIA planes going down with 400 kilos of Cocaine back in the late 50's to spark the war on drugs and to restrict the american people, or how there are 500 unaccounted children a year when children are taken in to custody of child protective services, or how Bush is related to kerry, cheney, obama, McCain, Perry, Corizine, Royal Family, Head of the world banking. I mean this sytem that they built is meant to be misunderstood and to have simple explainations to try and disprove but theres to much evidence that supports other wise. What is concrete tho is that these people right now are going to lead us to another war in the next 6-12 months. We can't let it happen. Espicaly with these martial law states about to be put in place, Imagine with the NDAA and the powers are government currently have over the people how there censoring the internet, the wide spread fear and panic over terrorism. Imagine a world war with this scenaio Americans are going to be detained and maybe even killed if there was another War just over the fear of homeland security. We cant let this happen. Thats why I can not support any other candidate then Ron Paul.






Conspiracy seems to appeal to you so, no offense comrade, but have you "investigated" Ron Paul's link to deep pocket folks of the racist persuasion? David Duke ring a bell?:confused:Ps...Rick Santorum 2012!
"No more radicals!" is my war cry this election season...a shade right of the middle of the road, experienced, bipartisan when it counts and sound conservative values, my man Rick has the least amount of waste in his shitter and can win over the wavering Obama-nites! He just doesn't have the capital needed to win the nod...

[FrwdObsvr82ABN]

[QUOTE=iCharlieF0xtr0t;66421]I could branch on a number of topics off of everything you just pointed out. But to save time and effort I wont go into it. Im just going to point out that our educational system has programmed us from the beginning to be post industralized and to benefit society basically be factory workers, raise your hand, wait to be told what to do and everything is stuctured limiting the brains actual potential. But again the structure they built has been mastered over thousands of years and is hidden again in plain sight i guess its just a matter of perspective in your case like studyin poli sci you see it differently because its the answers theve given to you, What I'm tallking about in general is how there are multiple blood lines the link 90% of the worlds elite together. The Occult meetings the evil that they do, rape murder adultry. For thousands of years and just until the creation of the internet anyone who has spoken out against them has been killed literally thousands of cases. I mean you tell me what happens to the countless unexplainable things such as CIA planes going down with 400 kilos of Cocaine back in the late 50's to spark the war on drugs and to restrict the american people, or how there are 500 unaccounted children a year when children are taken in to custody of child protective services, or how Bush is related to kerry, cheney, obama, McCain, Perry, Corizine, Royal Family, Head of the world banking. I mean this sytem that they built is meant to be misunderstood and to have simple explainations to try and disprove but theres to much evidence that supports other wise. What is concrete tho is that these people right now are going to lead us to another war in the next 6-12 months. We can't let it happen. Espicaly with these martial law states about to be put in place, Imagine with the NDAA and the powers are government currently have over the people how there censoring the internet, the wide spread fear and panic over terrorism. Imagine a world war with this scenaio Americans are going to be detained and maybe even killed if there was another War just over the fear of homeland security. We cant let this happen. Thats why I can not support any other candidate then Ron Paul.





Conspiracy seems to appeal to you so, no offense comrade, but have you "investigated" Ron Paul's link to deep pocket folks of the racist persuasion? David Duke ring a bell?:confused:Ps...Rick Santorum 2012!
"No more radicals!" is my war cry this election season...a shade right of the middle of the road, experienced, bipartisan when it counts and sound conservative values, my man Rick has the least amount of waste in his shitter and can win over the wavering Obama-nites! He just doesn't have the capital needed to win the nod...

Personally I will vote for who ever is against Obama, the Man has not done anything in the last 3 years with this horrible economy...

[clarkness7112100]

There a few things I would to address. First off, people think Ron Paul is a racist. Maybe he has discriminatory beliefs on his own, but his actions over the years have not shown it. Personally, I think people have the right to think and act like they want without impeding the life and liberty of others. You can be racist all you want, you can hate any group of people you want, but do not let your feelings dictate how you affect others. Anything Ron Paul has done, has been in accordance with the constitution. Thomas Jefferson once said "“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." People like David Duke right now have a purpose, they are fighting for speech rights. Racism in its own accord is dying off, the more of us that become educated and realize that some people just have a better tan than others rather than separate races of people. To me, people who keep bringing up race, sexual orientation, nationality and other dividing factors just serve to continue the problem. What needs to change is ethics and morals. It is not fair for Ron Paul, or us, to discriminate against others trying to achieve the same goals based on the purpose of those goals in the end. Its not speech that inhibits liberty, its the actions that are a result of a believe in that speech that inhibits it. It is up to those that are listening to speech to use their critical thinking skills to decipher the message.

If you think that this government should adhere to the Constitution, then you should vote Ron Paul. If you think the Constitution should be the governing document of this nation, you should vote Ron Paul. Whatever issue comes up, he aligns his solutions with the Constitution. I'm sorry, I think Rick Santorum is disgusting. He bases his decisions based on what he thinks this country should be and not by the Constitution. His views on homosexuality are extreme. Do I agree with it? Not really, but it doesn't honestly affect me in any sense really. If homosexuals want to get married that is fine with me, it mights even boost the economy! It doesn't destroy the sanctity of marriage. What destroys the sanctity of marriage are acts of adultery and divorce. Marriage is a union of two people to take vows to support each other through thick or thin. It was has nothing to do with where people stick it and with what. Plus, how is it that a devout Christian is ready to start wars so quickly with a country that is no threat whatsoever to us. Being Christian and wanting war are opposite sides of the spectrum. People in this country like to label people based of what they say and their actions and though sometimes those labels can be true, they are not more often. Why is it Timothy McVeigh and Norway guy both were "supposedly" devout Christians commit mass murder and we do not connect their religion with the act, but yet if those who are supposedly Muslim commit heinous acts, it is because they are Muslim and not because they are crazy assholes. When it comes to the Holy Books of this world that centers around "God", they all have verses that can be construed as violent or peaceful, it is the reader who must make the decision on what it is worth to them. If Christians were getting bomb in mass, they would have a violent outlook on life and would probably take not and take cause in the more violent ways because that is their world around them. I am not a fan of religion, although I see it uses. I would always rather see people do good things in this world in the name of a god rather than not do anything good at all.

When it comes to the economy, Rick, Mitt, and Newt talk a big game, but notice how they do not tell you how they are going to do it. They just say, I'm going to cut spending or entitlements, but they have no actual plan. At least Ron Paul has the right idea. He wants to focus getting rid of worthless systems of bureaucracy and cut away the rules that inhibit people like you and I from starting our own business. These big corporations have no problem with business ventures because they have teams of lawyers to decipher the bullshit in those law books, where we, the normal Joe's and Jan's, don't even know where to start because of the nonsense of starting a new business. The corporations are the ones making the rules right now. We are trying to play a game that they are making up on the spot, its a wonder how small business can still be out there. Most of what Rick, Mitt, and Newt is the preaching of the "trickle down economic theory" which is complete and utter BS. Giving money to those up top will create jobs is the largest pile of shit I have ever seen. If people at the top have a goal to make money, then straight out giving them money does nothing. They have met their goals of increasing profits already. What gets an economy rolling is demand. The more demand of any product will increase the number of jobs out there to make the product. If the people at the bottom have no money, then there will be no demand. No demand means no jobs. You wouldn't create a factory or keep a factory open that produces a product that no one wants, so why would they? The bailout would have been better to give every man, woman, and child a share of money in which they would buy products and services, which would have stimulated the economy more than giving large amounts of money to companies that were "too big to fail" so that they could just buy each other up and become bigger. How does that make sense?

Khy3eb: I think the point Charlie is trying to make is the educational system is failing to produce citizens with critical thinking abilities. When it comes to science, there isn't much you can do distort "2+2=4" but when it comes to the the social issues, we teach everything in history in society as being fact, not a matter of opinion. In those classes, we tell students to to memorize and regurgitate like drones, rather than to come to realization on their own. Most would think the Civil War was about slavery and WW2 was about saving the Jews, when that is mostly false. They will make you think that economics is as complicated as calculus and that intervention in the world is the only way. Even colleges at the undergraduate levels fail to produce critical thinking abilities. We are trained to accept whatever the news tells us rather than for us to actual think about situations involving ourselves. The masses are spoon fed what those controlling everything want you to think. When the media tells me that a candidate is "unelectable", especially one who has won more elections than those combined or just as much, I find it insulting. I as the voter will determine who is electable and unelectable to me, not the media, but since people are trained to accept any and all information as it comes as truth, people will tend to make uninformed decisions. This country needs to have more cultural, political, and social awareness, that is where we are failing.

When it comes to conspiracy theories, remember it was a theory that we knew what was coming to Pearl Harbor which is now regarded as truth. It was theory about what really happened at the Gulf of Tonkin, now it was truth. Is America or any country inherently evil or good? No, I truly believe that there are good people around the world, its our leaders that are playing games with our lives. I do believe most governments are corrupt because we have been taught and trained that money makes the world go round, and to have a good life, you need money. Money does make some things easier in life, but it will never give you happiness. Happiness will come through achieving goals having love and goodness around you. There is a lot of talk about Rothschilds, Rockafeller, and other families controlling things. I have my own opinions that I won't share other than there is a group of greedy SoB's at the top that want control of everything and they do not care what type of ruination they bring to the world to get it. You can label them with names, religions, races, or what have you, but basic fact there are people in this world that would throw away your life in an instant if it would make them a dollar. The powers that be have many of you looking down the chain at people of lower wealth, religion, ethnicities when you should be looking up. Follow the money and you find those who are ruining in the world.

If you think those in power or those that are vastly wealthy beyond imagine are good people or people of good ethics, then I would like you to play a game with me. Imagine that you were just handed one billion dollars. Figure out what you would do with the money. I know I couldn't even come up what to do with the first 100 million. I found myself reaching for reasons for making the world a better place through charity or starting non-profit businesses that I as a CEO would give myself a small paycheck and not worry about making huge profits, just enough to make it a business that lasts. You can't seriously waste a billion dollars in your lifetime. Sure I could maybe do it if I try to make my own space shuttle or do something crazy like that, but in the grand scheme of things, without flying off the handle, I wouldn't know what to do with it. So then why are people who have way more than a billion dollars make it there quest in life to have more. It isn't about assets, its about power and control. People don't rape people because they are extremely horny, people don't murder random people because they are somehow threatened by them, pedophiles don't mess with children for the great sex, mass murders do not happen because they just really don't like a certain group of people, its all about power and control. The more money they get, the more control they have, and we are giving it to them easily and without a fight.

[Khy3eb]

Clarkness you hit on a lot of really good points, and if you wouldn't mind my friend I would like to respond to a couple. I think it's already pretty clear from the wording of your post that you and I are not going to agree on political candidates, so I'm not going to try to change your mind (since you volunteered your support Rep. Paul I'll throw out my own support for Sen. Santorum; partly because I agree with his politics but also because I appreciate his record, additionally the man has an MBA and a JD from two highly respected institutions, degrees that I believe to be a huge asset to those in political office).

I would like to start by responding to the section of your post directed at me, I do understand that Charlie's point was our education system doesn't prepare its graduates in regards to social sciences. My point is that this doesn't matter, and that ultimately the American public is capable of rational and reasonable collective decision making. The education we give kids politically is just the absolute bare bones basics of what they need to understand to be considered informed people. The key here is as a collective body a group of people can make a reasonable decision based on a limited amount of information. I didn't say that they could make the RIGHT decision, just a reasonable one.

Honestly, the argument about the education system breaks down when you consider that only a small portion of the population actually makes an effort to understand the system itself. Those that do tend to look only at candidates on the national level and only about the issues that are part of each candidates platforms. The reason so few Americans really care about politics is because the benefits of being politically well informed do not outweigh the opportunity cost of becoming so. The average hard working American has many many more things they need to worry about than studying politics, especially if its not an election year. The average American is more concerned about how their children are doing in school, how their favorite sports teams are doing, work, recreation, how much gas they have in the car, whats for dinner and literally a thousand other things that are more important and give a much greater benefit to them on a personal level than spending a couple hours a week keeping up with politics. Even if the education system did do a "good" job of informing the students in American schools, they'd likely only remember things for the test and then move on to bigger/better things (for them) as soon as their done with the course.

You mentioned that you cannot dispute things in the physical sciences, 2+2 will always equal 4 for us. The social sciences, as you noted, are not like that but at the same time they're also not based on opinion like you say. There is a preponderance of the evidence in the social sciences; if you go back and read my earlier posts the same phrase I keep using is "the evidence/research suggests." Because we can't prove things as a social science we can only get a higher level of probability that something is true. But you already knew this I'm just arguing semantics here.

Anyways, those are just a couple of my initial thoughts after reading your post.

[clarkness7112100]

I would be careful using thinking that degrees make a man a better person than another. If you look at universities and colleges, a lot of them do not teach critical thinking as I said. A degree, although there is importance to it in today's society, only really means that at some point you were in classes that exposed you to information that you could easily find free these days and that you answered questions based on what is accepted at the moment. Many scholars over the years swore up and down on certain points because that was was taught at the time, only to find out that they were wrong. If you look at how much free knowledge that there is on the internet and in the libraries these days, a degree is only really proof of being exposed to a curriculum of study (not proof of knowledge). We are basically paying for proof that we attended classes. Its the old saying "What do you call a Cor D student in medical school? Doctor. If he were truly about what is best for America as a whole, then he wouldn't accept donations from corporations, or at least outlandish sums that drown out the voice of the American people. If he were truly an altruistic individual, then why vote for pay raises for his position in politics? If he believed in the Constitution, then his own religion shouldn't be a reason to stop the legalization of something he doesn't agree with on a moral level. If he is a follower of a religion that supposedly follows peaceful ways, then why is war and covert operation behind the backs of countries one of his first option rather than a last resort?

As to your point about the public making a reasonable decisions, if it were true that the public could be reasonable decisions with limited information, then we would not have the electoral college system. If our political leaders truly thought that, then the electoral college would have been gotten rid of a long time ago. Also, take into a account where people are getting their information from, constant propaganda is thrown our way about information that is later said to be untrue. If you listen to MSM these days, its blacks, poor people, and Muslims that threaten the world, not corruption, greed, and general selfishness. They told us that Iraq had WMDs and we had to stop them, yet no WMDs were found. We knew Osama was in Afghanistan and the Taliban was hiding him, but he was in Pakistan the entire time. Libya had WMDs and was ruled by a crazy dictator who was supposedly a terrorist himself, but nothing there. The only thing we know for sure is those countries have oil and other valuable resources that a lot of rich corporations are reaping the benefit while our soldiers die and we pay for it all. Although Americans are not taught that politics aren't important, they are just brainwashed into thinking that other things are way more important. We no longer reward intelligence or innovation. We give millions of dollars to athletes playing a game, reality TV stars, and people who literally go out of the way to do stupid stuff. Its funny how flags are flying half-mast for Whitney Houston, but yet soldiers die everyday and nobody cares. We have wars, military operations, and life-changing discovery all over the world at any given moment, but the news is filled with Kim, Paris, and Lindsey and opinions from newscasters who tell us their opinions all day long. We pay millions of dollars to Robin Meade because she is hot and she can read. Yet, we pile debt upon more debt on those getting education on real factual sciences that could lead to innovation in this country. We place more importance on creating intangible product than real product.

Political awareness does requite a lot of time, by the time the average family works their jobs, go to schools, cook the dinners, and maybe have an hour to relax. It is frowned upon to ask questions or be politically active. The news painted the Occupy protest as a bunch of retarded, lazy druggies when that is not the true case. They have smeared the campaign so much that people will automatically assume the worst about them. Ask questions of the government and you land on a watch list or labeled a crazy conspiracy theorist. Who knew that simple questions tend to produce the most threat? By the time the families get to sit down and watch the news, they bash into the people's brains that crime is rising because they will undoubtedly show all of the bad that is happening in your area, then they will show you a cute youtube video because obviously that needs to be on the news, then a segment on entertainment, more on sports and you might get a couple seconds between the commercials that whomever the media likes at the time will dominate those few seconds. We focus more on what candidates did, than what they are going to do. Everybody likes to focus on Ron Paul being racist, but everyone forgets his speech in 2002 of the exact economic downturn we experienced in 2008. He saw it coming and yet we still think he is as crazy now than we apparently thought he was then. People in power was us to be misinformed and under-educated about the facts, makes all of the BS on the news easier to digest for many. Instead of today's politicians explaining their views with real reasons, they just say "God wills it" or its "Unpatriotic" otherwise.

[Khy3eb]

I would be careful using thinking that degrees make a man a better person than another. If you look at universities and colleges, a lot of them do not teach critical thinking as I said.

With a BS/BA/BGS I will grant you that 100% of the time and then some. I'll even grant it with some graduate work depending on the field. But I firmly believe it takes an entirely different approach to education to earn a JD. Law programs teach their students to think differently. For my BA I sat in classes that I had absolutely no interest in, didn't read the material and still came out with an A grade just for showing up and doing what the instructor asked me to. That isn't a boast, its an indictment of our education system.

I don't particularly want to get into a thread that breaks down the candidates platforms, positions and their own beliefs, partly because I do that in school on a near daily basis; but also because I tend to agree with the platform of this candidate in a way that would lead me to think, that you would believe, I'm the kind of person that is the problem with America. That was kind of a complicated sentence so I'll throw one example out there, I am very much a pro-war person. I believe that diplomacy has a role to play in foreign exchange, but I am also firmly in the group of people that see war as a first alternative to be a good thing. For the record, I'm an Iraq vet and I did not feel happy about leaving my wife here in the states while I went to go play Army in the sandbox for a year; but I did it because as a soldier I recognized I'm more of an instrument of policy than anything else (that it was a policy I personally agreed with is the definition of a "perk" [the policy I'm referring to here is the Bush Doctrine]). If I understand Rep. Paul's position correctly he would have the American military become a force for self-defense and not an operational force designed for preemptive strikes. This is an outlook that I disagree with and that's one of the reasons I choose not to support Rep. Paul.

Saying that to say this though, I would like to say props to you and the others in this thread for expressing your opinions; the exchange of ideas is a great thing, one of the reasons I love this country so much. I submit that the respectful and thoughtful exchange of differing opinions (and it's pretty clear you and I do disagree) is a sign of respect. So thank you for that as well.

[clarkness7112100]

As far as the Bush Doctrine is concerned, I do agree that we have every right to defend ourselves from outside threats. What I don't agree with is how we have done it. For as much money and technology we have, how is it a bunch of hijackers not from Afghanistan (Mostly Saudi) took over four planes with box cutters, had all four planes deviate from flight pattern for over an hour without fighters scrambled at any time to head off these planes crash into three buildings? How is it that they knew to do this on the exact same day we were doing drills about the same situation across the east coast? How is it that if the Bush Administration did not think this could happen, then have drills? How is it that if we didn't have the correct information to stop this months before, how did we come up with Osama doing in a matter of hours after? So a Saudi person masterminded the attack with mostly Saudi personnel carrying out the attack so we come up with going into Afghanistan? We say how much much the Taliban are friendly to terrorists, so we take out that government only to negotiate giving back control to Taliban a decade later? How is it that we just decided to go into Iraq for WMDs when he had no concrete proof? We know for a fact Korea has them, but we didn't go in there. Albeit a dictator, Hussein was more aligned with Western goals due to the fact that he was secular. Why is it that we went after Gaddafi and help the very group of people who preaches the same ideals as Al Qaeda and are in fact members of? Maybe there was good reason to hit these countries, but since there is zero transparency within our government, we have no choice but to believe whatever they tell us, even though they may be wrong or doing it for other reasons. I do no that we gave ourselves access to abundant amounts of oil and other resources because of this. I do know that if we didn't invade Iraq and Libya, they would have both stopped using the US Dollar to trade oil and use Euro or Dinar to do so which would have lowered the value of our dollar.

Its funny to think that after everything that happened, especially with intelligence issues and the deviations from protocol, no was fired, forced to resign, or even reprimanded. In fact, some people got promotions! I am all about the defense of America, I am all about making America great, but no good has come from these wars. We have lost a lot of good people and we have caused massive casualties on the other side and for what? Handing over Afghanistan to the Taliban, setting Iraq up to fail and giving radical muslims power in Libya?

I firmly believe that if we concentrate America's resources on making America better, including its political system. I believe we fight the war on corruption rather than terror. America will not be feared, but respected. Maybe even respected enough to where countries would like to be like us again.

I firmly believe that the corporations that would do anything to make a buck are the same ones that pump money so much into the system that its drowns out the will of the people. A lot of evidence shows that war is only profitable by a few and those few are the ones who put the most money into our system. The only way we can do that is getting the corrupt money out of the system and find transparency. Many of the candidates just offer more of the same, which in my opinion is ruining America.

[Rickety Rob]

Politics are a joke. It's funny watching others bash on another on t.v to become the next president. Plus I never believe what any of them have to say to begin with. They preach to the choir about how they plan or how they are going to make America right. I haven't seen anything happen other than America going into more debt, Americans loosing jobs and our economy going to shit. In my opinion, as long as the money I accrue doesn't get messed around with. I am good to go. Oh and I work that day, but if you go, have fun marching. Go Red!

[iamthesgt]

The reason so few Americans really care about politics is because the benefits of being politically well informed do not outweigh the opportunity cost of becoming so. The average hard working American has many many more things they need to worry about than studying politics, especially if its not an election year.
I would strongly disagree here. I don't spend much time, I look up the news and the issue every couple days or so, certainly not every day, and I would consider myself well-informed but the opportunity cost was rather small.


Even if the education system did do a "good" job of informing the students in American schools, they'd likely only remember things for the test and then move on to bigger/better things (for them) as soon as their done with the course.

That's the problem...students are taught to test. The teachers train their students for mediocrity (in many places, school districts must maintain average scores between certain numbers) and for testing, not for an increase in knowledge. Therefore, people are taught from a very early age to learn stuff and forget. The entire system is flawed, and in this case, it is not only the public school system. In private schools, though they are not trained for mediocrity, they are still being taught for testing in most cases, and all they end up doing is performing better on standardized tests - they still erase the material.

[Khy3eb]

I would strongly disagree here. I don't spend much time, I look up the news and the issue every couple days or so, certainly not every day, and I would consider myself well-informed but the opportunity cost was rather small.

There are three things I would like to qualify to reinforce my point, and you may agree with these and you may not so lets see how this works out.

1. The definition of well informed.

2. How much the opportunity cost personally means to you relative to others, and the definition of "benefiting from being politically well informed."

3. The definition of average American in my above post.

Concerning the definition of well informed, Philip Converse once wrote an article called Assessing the Capacity of Mass Electorates. Good read but in it he argues that public opinion isn't important because the average American is political incompetent. He came to this conclusion by surveying what he considered to be Average Americans, and he would ask them questions that he would consider necessary to fulfill the definition of well informed. These questions included things like: "When did we start directly electing senators?" and "What is the length of a US Senate Term?" and asking respondents to name as many US public figures as they can in the last 40 years. The results of these questions were disappointing, at least to him. I'm sure you're well informed by the standard of the Average American but according to Converse's definition only an extremely small percentage of American voters actually are.

Secondly, I don't know what your day to day life is like, I do know that I have a fair bit of time that I like to relax in, usually by drinking more than is safe or necessary. But am I an average American? I go to school, I work, I'm married but no kids yet. I'm not coaching my kids soccer team, so I do have a lot of time to sit around and do nothing, ergo the opportunity cost of being well informed is less for me than it would be for someone who has a lot more demands on their time. This argument stems from the fact that as a single voter no one can wield any appreciable influence with their one little vote. Ergo in the realistic sense I'm not, and you're not for that matter, really benefiting from being well informed (unless this is a job for you, in which case that's different). Otherwise it just might make us feel better to be so, or its a hobby or something.

And lastly, I kinda got into in the above paragraph, what exactly qualifies as "average"? That's a question that has tried to be answered by a fair number of scholars and the only constant I can find from my research is that they tend to not agree -- partly because defining something like that limits the empirical research that can be conducted, but also because only a half of the US constituency is actually political active (defined by voting) so the case could be made that it is average to not vote when you consider how much less the fraction is in local small elections.

Just some thoughts.

[clarkness7112100]

I'm going to reply to a few things.

Rickety, you shouldn't say politics are a joke because even if it does not affect you currently, it may down the road or even your kids for that matter. Unfortunately we think so short-term that we will tend to end up in a crisis eventually. I am not sure what your job is, but if be can longer afford to buy your services or products, it will affect you. Not sure how old you are, but right now there are a lot of people out there who lost their retirements and really have a low chance of finding work because of there age. There are people who have worked their butts off for America for years to see everything they have flushed down the toilet. Yes, maybe they should have prepared better, but at the same time, how much have prices changed for the past 20 years. A million dollar retirement may not even be enough for retirees these days. If one were to join the military to defends our freedoms and rights, wouldn't it be insulting to somebody to not use those rights?

Iamthesgt, I fully agree that we are taught to test. We memorize and then regurgitate the info on paper way too much. A degree is nothing compared to hands on experience to any task. Just like when we get a driver's license, passing the driver's test doesn't mean we are competent, it just means that we know the information for one day, its our driving records that prove (somewhat) that we are experienced good drivers. When I was an instructor, I tried to teach based based of situations and hands on activity. There are plenty of nukes out there that are operating reactors right now that really don't have a clue on what they are doing. Luckily its a team effort running an engine room so there tends to be backup, but I think that knowledge is degrading fast and I believe its because of the memorize, regurgitate, and dump methods that are happening now.

Khy3eb

1. The definition of well informed. - I would say well-informed would constitute having knowledge of various topics through various sources of different bias to provide the best encompassing view of the situation. I don't expect everyone to know everything about politics, but when it comes to world position, economy, and rights, everyone should know a little something I would hope. I know this is not the case and it is disheartening. :(

2. How much the opportunity cost personally means to you relative to others, and the definition of "benefiting from being politically well informed." Opportunity cost will depend on the values of the individual. Honestly, to stay well informed on much what I talk about, I cut most of my television time out. I only really watch a few hours a week because I don't really like much television programming these days anyway. Usually, I will check my different sites, about twenty once a day and do a little forum posting, but mostly a lurker honestly. I am an incredibly fast reader so honestly, uninterrupted, I tend to only take about an hour or two at most depending on the news day. I tend to read at least 20-30 articles a day, but as I said, I read fast and have a liking for the written word, which helps. Benefiting from being politically informed could mean different ways. The individual can benefit, the local society can benefit, the nation or even the world can benefit. I tend to look at it at a national view. I know my opinion doesn't always match others so I am always willing see other sides, and I truly believe that if America became the beacon of liberty and attainable dreams, then the world will follow suit to a good example. I think if America goes from being feared to respected or adored, I believe America can institute world change without war and destruction. Changes through peace and diplomacy will always last longer than those of death and violent opposition.

3. The definition of average American in my above post. Who the average American is depends on the generation, locality, religion, economic background, etc etc etc. On a social awareness level, we suck as a whole. I am sure it must be insulting to other countries that we are sanctioning and bombing that most of don't even know where they are on a map, yet we think know enough about them to interfere with their lives. The average American has been brainwashed through advertising, television programming and other media on what important. Its all about looks, convenience, money, fashion, popularity, and other types of wasteful vanity. Somewhere along the way, Americans went from wanting to make this world a better place to some sort of self-centered "what's in it for me" attitude". We have lost our moral compass and sense of responsibility and have become selfish and near-sighted.

I would agree, it would be hard to define "Average American" in any grand sense. I believe generational equivalents would be the best way to describe average Americans, it lowers the number of distinctions which enables us to see a somewhat accurate picture of our society.

Day to day life for most can differ as well. Kids definitely will limit the free time, but also people are working longer hours at jobs, level of exhaustion is increasing, and general worrying plaguing us that its leaving America in a coma-like state. Getting Americans to act now, there is more of a chance that a transition to a better way of thinking will be with peace and not violence. In our system now, the minority rules and not the majority. Eventually there really will be a 99% vs the 1% situation in which will be ugly and a lasting scar on America. The beliefs of the few are dictating the beliefs of many right now which goes against what our country stands for. We all carry the label of American for the most part on this site. We can carry the label of free, peace loving, and understanding, or the label of rigid, war-mongering, and weak-minded. Our previous generations and my own have let things go south for way too long, and before we know it, we are going to leave a children with debt, resentment, and overall political mess. We have told the younger generations for way too long that they can be anyone they want, they can accomplish their dreams with hard work, and they have rights. We keep telling the younger generations to get that college degree because they don't want to be flipping burgers for the rest of their lives. Look what has happened, those children got their degree and now we dump McDonald's applications on them. We honestly lied to our children, maybe not knowingly, but we have been proven false. I honestly don't see our country fall apart in the near future, but I do fear that I may see it down the road when my daughter is my age now. (She is almost 3 and I almost 30 right now for perspective) When the anger rises in America, we see generalized anger at all groups of people and it will be chaos. Eventually it will all come down to the haves and have-nots. We can choose to get the revolution done with now and wait until later. Violence and chaos usually are just consequences of holding on to wrong or misguided ideals for way too long, almost like a rubber band being stretched way too far, the farther it stretches, the more force and pain it will cause. I'm a wuss so I tend not to like the pain. :)

[clarkness7112100]

Sorry, just wanted to add this as well.

http://youtu.be/VSEchNZkIT8

[squidfamily1]

Are we still getting points for # of words typed? You guys are rockin' ir

[clarkness7112100]

Yeah, usually any conversation that involves myself and video games usually starts and ends with swearing or bring up some description of an erection if I am psyched for the game. Get me on politics and I will write a book for you. If only I could get paid per word. :)

[jxspyder]

Boobies. That is all.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[Rickety Rob]

I'm going to reply to a few things.

Rickety, you shouldn't say politics are a joke because even if it does not affect you currently, it may down the road or even your kids for that matter. Unfortunately we think so short-term that we will tend to end up in a crisis eventually. I am not sure what your job is, but if be can longer afford to buy your services or products, it will affect you. Not sure how old you are, but right now there are a lot of people out there who lost their retirements and really have a low chance of finding work because of there age. There are people who have worked their butts off for America for years to see everything they have flushed down the toilet. Yes, maybe they should have prepared better, but at the same time, how much have prices changed for the past 20 years. A million dollar retirement may not even be enough for retirees these days. If one were to join the military to defends our freedoms and rights, wouldn't it be insulting to somebody to not use those rights?

Iamthesgt, I fully agree that we are taught to test. We memorize and then regurgitate the info on paper way too much. A degree is nothing compared to hands on experience to any task. Just like when we get a driver's license, passing the driver's test doesn't mean we are competent, it just means that we know the information for one day, its our driving records that prove (somewhat) that we are experienced good drivers. When I was an instructor, I tried to teach based based of situations and hands on activity. There are plenty of nukes out there that are operating reactors right now that really don't have a clue on what they are doing. Luckily its a team effort running an engine room so there tends to be backup, but I think that knowledge is degrading fast and I believe its because of the memorize, regurgitate, and dump methods that are happening now.

Khy3eb

1. The definition of well informed. - I would say well-informed would constitute having knowledge of various topics through various sources of different bias to provide the best encompassing view of the situation. I don't expect everyone to know everything about politics, but when it comes to world position, economy, and rights, everyone should know a little something I would hope. I know this is not the case and it is disheartening. :(

2. How much the opportunity cost personally means to you relative to others, and the definition of "benefiting from being politically well informed." Opportunity cost will depend on the values of the individual. Honestly, to stay well informed on much what I talk about, I cut most of my television time out. I only really watch a few hours a week because I don't really like much television programming these days anyway. Usually, I will check my different sites, about twenty once a day and do a little forum posting, but mostly a lurker honestly. I am an incredibly fast reader so honestly, uninterrupted, I tend to only take about an hour or two at most depending on the news day. I tend to read at least 20-30 articles a day, but as I said, I read fast and have a liking for the written word, which helps. Benefiting from being politically informed could mean different ways. The individual can benefit, the local society can benefit, the nation or even the world can benefit. I tend to look at it at a national view. I know my opinion doesn't always match others so I am always willing see other sides, and I truly believe that if America became the beacon of liberty and attainable dreams, then the world will follow suit to a good example. I think if America goes from being feared to respected or adored, I believe America can institute world change without war and destruction. Changes through peace and diplomacy will always last longer than those of death and violent opposition.

3. The definition of average American in my above post. Who the average American is depends on the generation, locality, religion, economic background, etc etc etc. On a social awareness level, we suck as a whole. I am sure it must be insulting to other countries that we are sanctioning and bombing that most of don't even know where they are on a map, yet we think know enough about them to interfere with their lives. The average American has been brainwashed through advertising, television programming and other media on what important. Its all about looks, convenience, money, fashion, popularity, and other types of wasteful vanity. Somewhere along the way, Americans went from wanting to make this world a better place to some sort of self-centered "what's in it for me" attitude". We have lost our moral compass and sense of responsibility and have become selfish and near-sighted.

I would agree, it would be hard to define "Average American" in any grand sense. I believe generational equivalents would be the best way to describe average Americans, it lowers the number of distinctions which enables us to see a somewhat accurate picture of our society.

Day to day life for most can differ as well. Kids definitely will limit the free time, but also people are working longer hours at jobs, level of exhaustion is increasing, and general worrying plaguing us that its leaving America in a coma-like state. Getting Americans to act now, there is more of a chance that a transition to a better way of thinking will be with peace and not violence. In our system now, the minority rules and not the majority. Eventually there really will be a 99% vs the 1% situation in which will be ugly and a lasting scar on America. The beliefs of the few are dictating the beliefs of many right now which goes against what our country stands for. We all carry the label of American for the most part on this site. We can carry the label of free, peace loving, and understanding, or the label of rigid, war-mongering, and weak-minded. Our previous generations and my own have let things go south for way too long, and before we know it, we are going to leave a children with debt, resentment, and overall political mess. We have told the younger generations for way too long that they can be anyone they want, they can accomplish their dreams with hard work, and they have rights. We keep telling the younger generations to get that college degree because they don't want to be flipping burgers for the rest of their lives. Look what has happened, those children got their degree and now we dump McDonald's applications on them. We honestly lied to our children, maybe not knowingly, but we have been proven false. I honestly don't see our country fall apart in the near future, but I do fear that I may see it down the road when my daughter is my age now. (She is almost 3 and I almost 30 right now for perspective) When the anger rises in America, we see generalized anger at all groups of people and it will be chaos. Eventually it will all come down to the haves and have-nots. We can choose to get the revolution done with now and wait until later. Violence and chaos usually are just consequences of holding on to wrong or misguided ideals for way too long, almost like a rubber band being stretched way too far, the farther it stretches, the more force and pain it will cause. I'm a wuss so I tend not to like the pain. :)

It is unfortunate for those who have lost so much due to the economy. I do work for the government and am aware that I could potentially loose my job under many circumstances and I do agree that we look for short term answers vs long term. I'm 30 years old and I've seen many things happen in my life time to realize what I should and shouldn't do. Until I start seeing some success and improvements in America, then I'll start thinking in a different manner. I'm not out to bash or degrade anyone by any means, but when I see something happen vs hearing it, my mind tends to go in the direction it sees fit. I'm what you can say "Actions speak louder than words" kind of guy. Thanks for your input

[clarkness7112100]

Actions are definitely what is needed, be it peaceful or not to get attention these days. There are a lot of angry people out there that don't know what they are angry at. Its just a matter of time before many of Americans stop fighting each other and start fighting those that started selling our freedoms wholesale so that they can line their pockets with worthless money. I think the majority out there can agree that we would all like to be successful and want for nothing, but I doubt the majority would screw everyone else in the process to get there. It just seems that those at the top are so worried about losing what they really didn't work for or labor for in the first place are making last ditch efforts to save what little power they have left.

[Rickety Rob]

Actions are definitely what is needed, be it peaceful or not to get attention these days. There are a lot of angry people out there that don't know what they are angry at. Its just a matter of time before many of Americans stop fighting each other and start fighting those that started selling our freedoms wholesale so that they can line their pockets with worthless money. I think the majority out there can agree that we would all like to be successful and want for nothing, but I doubt the majority would screw everyone else in the process to get there. It just seems that those at the top are so worried about losing what they really didn't work for or labor for in the first place are making last ditch efforts to save what little power they have left.

Preach it to the choir sir! ;)

[clarkness7112100]

At the moment of this post, there are 500 active duty/retired soldiers with their back turned to the white house, with their back turned, holding a salute. They are currently holding that salute for one second per soldier that have committed suicide under Obama's command.

[clarkness7112100]

After over 8 minutes of a silent salute, it was followed by almost a half hour of silent prayer at parade rest for every American death during the wars. Then the formation marched off chanting "End the Fed" throughout the city. Its funny how Secret Service were pulling up consistently, taking pictures of everyone. MSM was there, but didn't show it, although no talk about the march on any of the news sites and channels. Mysteriously, the feeds were having a lot of trouble all at the same during the silence.

Its funny how you don't see this for any other candidate.

[Rickety Rob]

After over 8 minutes of a silent salute, it was followed by almost a half hour of silent prayer at parade rest for every American death during the wars. Then the formation marched off chanting "End the Fed" throughout the city. Its funny how Secret Service were pulling up consistently, taking pictures of everyone. MSM was there, but didn't show it, although no talk about the march on any of the news sites and channels. Mysteriously, the feeds were having a lot of trouble all at the same during the silence.

Its funny how you don't see this for any other candidate.

God bless the troops who gave their lives so other could have theirs. It's always great having others actually take the time and honor those who have fallen for their country and fellow arms men.

[iCharlieF0xtr0t]

It was one hell of a day, Clark did you end up going?

[clarkness7112100]

No, got way too much on my plate to be able to travel right now. Hopefully I will be getting out of the military soon so I can have a bit more free time and freedom.