View Full Version : Fan Wars: The ultimate geek showdown.
jxspyder
06-03-2012, 12:26
In order to not further derail the discussion of the single-movie franchise reboot and subsequent homosexuality of the new Green Lantern with meaningful banter, I'd like to give this it's own topic.
And after a little bit of thinking, I'd like to expand on the subject by borrowing Stan Lee's upcoming tv series idea. The concept is simple. Throw out a battle of geekdom. Comic books, tv, movies, it doesn't matter. Make it a specific fight. And bring your A game to your arguements, because they will be closed to allow new discussion.
And where better to start then the discussion that spawned this thread?
So Finch is a die-hard DC fan, and he's likely not the only deluded fool.........I mean fan, of DC. Likewise, many of us, myself included, worship at the alter of Stan the Man. Which, however, is the ultimate king of geekery?
DC vs. Marvel. Who's the best?
LMAO! You wanna throw down son?!
http://img.tapatalk.com/c6e4c819-ce32-e14e.jpg
I would like to point out before we begin, I'm not a hardcore DC fan that hates Marvel. I can be objective about them though as I don't like one over the other. I like them both, in fact, the only book I'm reading right now is X-men Vs. Avengers. Stan Lee is a personal Hero of mine as well.
So if we're gonna argue COMPANIES, I have to give it to Marvel for their knack of putting out stellar books with awesome characters, many of whom I love to this day. DC's most popular titles are of the big 3, whereas Marvel has literally tons of hit series.
So this round clearly has to go to Marvel. Now when we get into who's the best HERO, that's a different ball game altogether.
So Dave, your plans of calling me out and systematically embarrassing me for my comic book preferences have been effectively circumvented. Nice try though. :) Next.....
Here's a good example:
http://img.tapatalk.com/c6e4c81d-e1c6-2dda.jpg
1. Superman vs Hulk
2. Capt. Marvel vs Thor
3. Flash vs Quiksilver
4. Aqua man vs Namor
5. Superboy vs Spiderman
6. Robin vs Jubilee
7. Wonder Woman vs Storm
8. Batman vs Capt. America
9. Lobo vs Wolverine
I was a Marvel fan... but then I grew up and moved on to DC lol.
Here's a good example:
http://img.tapatalk.com/c6e4c81d-e1c6-2dda.jpg
1. Superman vs Hulk
2. Capt. Marvel vs Thor
3. Flash vs Quiksilver
4. Aqua man vs Namor
5. Superboy vs Spiderman
6. Robin vs Jubilee
7. Wonder Woman vs Storm
8. Batman vs Capt. America
9. Lobo vs Wolverine
In my eyes, all the DC heroes win here with the exception of Aquaman.
jxspyder
06-03-2012, 17:33
So Dave, your plans of calling me out and systematically embarrassing me for my comic book preferences have been effectively circumvented. Nice try though. :) Next.....
Dude, way too much credit. Plus, I don't need to embarrass you, you do that enough yourself. :p :drum:
Agree completely with your assessment though, especially due to the successful stable size advantage Marvel has. You could also go to the movie well, with the best grossing comic book adaptations. Top ten has 8 Marvel IP's, and 2 of Batman.
Here's a good example:
http://img.tapatalk.com/c6e4c81d-e1c6-2dda.jpg
1. Superman vs Hulk
2. Capt. Marvel vs Thor
3. Flash vs Quiksilver
4. Aqua man vs Namor
5. Superboy vs Spiderman
6. Robin vs Jubilee
7. Wonder Woman vs Storm
8. Batman vs Capt. America
9. Lobo vs Wolverine
Personally, I don't like most of the matchups, since they don't really mesh and are different in far too many aspects. Though ironically, out of the 5 matchups that were fan voted, Marvel won 3-2. And obviously I disagree completely that all but Aquaman are DC victories.
In my eyes, all the DC heroes win here with the exception of Aquaman.
I have to agree, Dc heroes are just boss.
Dude, way too much credit. Plus, I don't need to embarrass you, you do that enough yourself. :p :drum:
LOL Touché....
Though ironically, out of the 5 matchups that were fan voted, Marvel won 3-2. And obviously I disagree completely that all but Aquaman are DC victories.
Marvel had WAY more votes than DC, which can attest to their popularity I guess. The hero battles, some of these are too close to call, but some are just ridiculous.
And those fan voted match-ups are exactly that, fan voted. Wolverine beating Lobo? No way, no how. I love Wolvie but Lobo is Immortal and stood toe to toe with Superman at one point. Storm beating Wonder Woman? Spider-Man besting Superboy? Silver Surfer getting the upper hand on Green Lantern? I don't see any of these happening.
Conversely, I agree with Elektra messing up Catwoman. I also think Namor would crush Aquaman.
There needs to be another of these battles, with the heroes of today. That would be fun to see!
jxspyder
06-03-2012, 19:48
Marvel had WAY more votes than DC, which can attest to their popularity I guess. The hero battles, some of these are too close to call, but some are just ridiculous.
And those fan voted match-ups are exactly that, fan voted. Wolverine beating Lobo? No way, no how. I love Wolvie but Lobo is Immortal and stood toe to toe with Superman at one point. Storm beating Wonder Woman? Spider-Man besting Superboy? Silver Surfer getting the upper hand on Green Lantern? I don't see any of these happening.
Yeah, and they were fan voted for a reason :p
Lobo is immortal.......but how old is Wolverine again? How much does his mutant healing factor in to the equation? His adamantium? These are major factors.
Superboy and Spiderman? Yeah, that's absolutely Spiderman everytime. Superboy was a flawed clone designed to look like Supes and mirror some of his abilities. He's not a real clone, and I'm pretty sure he never has been. So while I wouldn't put Spiderman up against Superman...except in popularity....I'd absolutely put him up against Superboy.
Storm beating Wonder Woman is absolutely believable. Again, you're looking at a mutant...this one having full control of elements, against a really strong person who can make you tell the truth.
And as the Silver Surfer, with his Cosmic powers, is arguably a toe-to-to challenge for Superman, I'd put him up against Hal as well. Though for that matter, I'd put Hal up against Superman.
If we're looking at these objectively, as you mentioned before, these are absolutely possible.
As for Superman himself........he's not immortal, and he absolutely has weaknesses. Professor X, Phoenix, both have mind control abilities that absolutely will impact Superman. If Bruce Wayne can get a stockpile of Kryptonite, then Tony Stark or Reed Richards absolutely could. Thor's mix of strength and magic would make him a contender, as would Wolverine's combo of mutant healing and adamantium. Dr. Strange, the master of magic, is a B-lister who could go up against him. Going farther in the less well-known, you have characters like Captain Universe, Rogue, and X-man who could "compete." For that matter, pretty much any Omega-level mutant.....Reed and Sue's son Franklin, Jean Gray, Elixir, or Iceman....should be able to take on Superman and walk away.
Now, while I'll happily admit that none of them are a guarenteed knock-out...aside from perhaps Professor X or Silver Surfer....they are all definite contenders.
Reed and Sue's son Franklin, Jean Gray, Elixir, or Iceman....should be able to take on Superman and walk away.
Now, while I'll happily admit that none of them are a guarenteed knock-out...aside from perhaps Professor X or Silver Surfer....they are all definite contenders. Superman v.s. Darkseid enough said.
Yeah, and they were fan voted for a reason :p
Lobo is immortal.......but how old is Wolverine again? How much does his mutant healing factor in to the equation? His adamantium? These are major factors.
Superboy and Spiderman? Yeah, that's absolutely Spiderman everytime. Superboy was a flawed clone designed to look like Supes and mirror some of his abilities. He's not a real clone, and I'm pretty sure he never has been. So while I wouldn't put Spiderman up against Superman...except in popularity....I'd absolutely put him up against Superboy.
Storm beating Wonder Woman is absolutely believable. Again, you're looking at a mutant...this one having full control of elements, against a really strong person who can make you tell the truth.
And as the Silver Surfer, with his Cosmic powers, is arguably a toe-to-to challenge for Superman, I'd put him up against Hal as well. Though for that matter, I'd put Hal up against Superman.
Ok, let's see....Wolverine has a slower age rate due to his healing factor, so he's, what 200 years old? Lobo is immortal, able to survive even if a single blood cell survives. He can instantaneously clone himself at will and last but not least, has a genius level intellect. He murdered his whole race with a genetically engineered science project in high school! Lol Logan on the other hand has some razor sharp claws...ok.
Ok, I'll give you the Superboy arguement. If it were Connor Kent and not this knock off, it'd be a different story. Peter Parker has mucho experience battling the baddies and let's face it, he's pretty tits all around.
Now, Storm an WW. Diana is essentially the woman version of Superman. Super-Strong, can fly at super-speeds and has a warrior mentality, which gives her the edge.
Storm has a misguided sense of superiority from being worshipped as a Goddess, whereas Diana was trained in battle by ARES! Ororo has the same durability as any normal human...one good punch and it's over. And those gale force winds your thinking that will protect her? They take time to work up to that level, in that time, she's hamburger.
Silver Surfer vs Superman. This one made me giggle. This wouldn't last long really. Taking into account Clark's ability to mentally control metals and his energy absorbing power that converts radiation into raw strength, this lasts maybe 15 minutes.
As for Superman himself........he's not immortal, and he absolutely has weaknesses. Professor X, Phoenix, both have mind control abilities that absolutely will impact Superman. If Bruce Wayne can get a stockpile of Kryptonite, then Tony Stark or Reed Richards absolutely could. Thor's mix of strength and magic would make him a contender, as would Wolverine's combo of mutant healing and adamantium. Dr. Strange, the master of magic, is a B-lister who could go up against him. Going farther in the less well-known, you have characters like Captain Universe, Rogue, and X-man who could "compete." For that matter, pretty much any Omega-level mutant.....Reed and Sue's son Franklin, Jean Gray, Elixir, or Iceman....should be able to take on Superman and walk away.
Now, while I'll happily admit that none of them are a guarenteed knock-out...aside from perhaps Professor X or Silver Surfer....they are all definite contenders.
Now you've brought up some really, REALLY good names here and some of them have me thinking. For starters, Xavier. Superman has been mind-controlled before and Charles would probably do a doozy on his noggin. Hell, he scrambled Jean's noodle and look at HER abilities.
The Phoenix worries me not so much for its mind control powers, but for its ability to absorb stars....as in Red Suns. That alone makes Phoenix dangerous to Clark.
So yea, the "Kryptonite Strategy". I agree that Tony and Reed could definitely stockpile Kryptonite to use against him. But without that, they have no chance.
Thor. Tough really cause its something of a paradox. Clark is vulnerable to magic, yet if he wields the Hammer, which by virtue, he could, then this negates all Thor's abilities.
Logan has zero chance. He may get a few slashes in before he suffocates in high orbit while Supes waits for him to die.
The others: Rogue, X-Man, Capt. Universe. Rogue, wouldn't get to lay a hand on him, so she's out. Nate would probably get into his head before Clark burned a lobotomy into his. And Capt. Universe? The Uni-Power probably wouldn't even attack Superman as he's held to such a path of goodness and justice that it would deem it criminal to battle a being of such inherent goodness.
You have named Iceman and an Omega level mutant. Is he really? Pretty sure the 'ol heat vision will take care of him.
All of the previous characters mentioned could be handled with a tactic that most forget Superman is capable of: Orbital Bombardment.
There are some heavy hitters you've named that cannot be ignored. Among them, Dr. Strange, Franklin Richards, Jean Grey, and Elixir.
In the interest of fairness, you've left out a few I thought of earlier. Proteus, Vulcan, Gladiator and Mr. Sinister come to mind.
Now any I these are contenders, but one stands out. Franklin Richards. You can't really contend with a kid that can bend reality to his whim.
All this analysis has done nothing to prove your point really. ALL of the strategies are merely methods of exploiting weaknesses. Kryptonite, Magic, Mental manipulation and Red Sun energy. Which anyone can do really. You've yet to show me someone who's powers, abilities, ethics and personality are comparable to Clark Kent. He's not the best hero just because he's a powerhouse, he's a Symbol of Freedom. A beacon of Justice that can't be bought or swayed by any means. An unbreakable Man of Steel that fights for those who cannot fight for themselves. He's us.
The only one who comes close to him is Steve Rogers. But in no way could stand toe to toe with him.
He has been beaten. A few times, even killed. What I stressed was, he's the Best Hero. Bar none.
On a side note, this is now my favorite thread! Lol
KaNtSt0PMeH
06-03-2012, 23:21
Wolverine would Smash Lobo.... lol I can see most match-ups going either way depending on the circumstances....
SPARTAAAAAAAAAA!
Lol Do you know why Lobo is immortal? I know you love Wolverine, but wiki him and get back to me. :)
KaNtSt0PMeH
06-03-2012, 23:40
Wolverine is immortal ish... lol
SPARTAAAAAAAAAA!
jxspyder
06-04-2012, 01:31
Now you've brought up some really, REALLY good names here and some of them have me thinking. For starters, Xavier. Superman has been mind-controlled before and Charles would probably do a doozy on his noggin. Hell, he scrambled Jean's noodle and look at HER abilities.
The Phoenix worries me not so much for its mind control powers, but for its ability to absorb stars....as in Red Suns. That alone makes Phoenix dangerous to Clark.
So yea, the "Kryptonite Strategy". I agree that Tony and Reed could definitely stockpile Kryptonite to use against him. But without that, they have no chance.
Thor. Tough really cause its something of a paradox. Clark is vulnerable to magic, yet if he wields the Hammer, which by virtue, he could, then this negates all Thor's abilities.
Logan has zero chance. He may get a few slashes in before he suffocates in high orbit while Supes waits for him to die.
The others: Rogue, X-Man, Capt. Universe. Rogue, wouldn't get to lay a hand on him, so she's out. Nate would probably get into his head before Clark burned a lobotomy into his. And Capt. Universe? The Uni-Power probably wouldn't even attack Superman as he's held to such a path of goodness and justice that it would deem it criminal to battle a being of such inherent goodness.
You have named Iceman and an Omega level mutant. Is he really? Pretty sure the 'ol heat vision will take care of him.
Starting at the top, and working down. Yes, Xavier and Phoenix.....bring on the pain :p
Yes, without Kryptonite, Stark and Richards don't have a chance. Just like Batman not having a chance. Yet Batman is arguably one of the few DC characters who are pretty much guarenteed to defeat Superman. So yeah, without it they'd lose. Just like without a yellow sun around, Superman would lose. In this case, largely a given.
You're assuming that Superman would be able to wield the hammer. Which would require him to get it away from Thor in the first place........which is a major assumption.
Assuming Supes gets him to high orbit, sure. That's a large assumption considering the claws that can cut through virtually anything.
The others......skin contact...which means Superman can't touch Rogue either. Nate can manipulate matter and energy. Apparently he's also an Omega level mutant. Lobotomy what? And Supes has definitely been down some dark roads in his life....which makes the Uni-Power opposing him less than impossible.
And yes, Iceman's an Omega level mutant. Remember that scene in X-Men 3, with Iceman and Pyro? Pretend Supes is Pyro with his heat-vision. Same result :p
And the funny thing about you mentioning Superman's ability to absorb energy. What does the Surfer absorb again? Radiation energy, like that from the sun? Which would mean that the Surfer could drain Superman's energy?
jxspyder
06-04-2012, 01:43
All of the previous characters mentioned could be handled with a tactic that most forget Superman is capable of: Orbital Bombardment.
There are some heavy hitters you've named that cannot be ignored. Among them, Dr. Strange, Franklin Richards, Jean Grey, and Elixir.
In the interest of fairness, you've left out a few I thought of earlier. Proteus, Vulcan, Gladiator and Mr. Sinister come to mind.
Now any I these are contenders, but one stands out. Franklin Richards. You can't really contend with a kid that can bend reality to his whim.
All this analysis has done nothing to prove your point really. ALL of the strategies are merely methods of exploiting weaknesses. Kryptonite, Magic, Mental manipulation and Red Sun energy. Which anyone can do really. You've yet to show me someone who's powers, abilities, ethics and personality are comparable to Clark Kent. He's not the best hero just because he's a powerhouse, he's a Symbol of Freedom. A beacon of Justice that can't be bought or swayed by any means. An unbreakable Man of Steel that fights for those who cannot fight for themselves. He's us.
The only one who comes close to him is Steve Rogers. But in no way could stand toe to toe with him.
He has been beaten. A few times, even killed. What I stressed was, he's the Best Hero. Bar none.
Orbital bombardment could be countered though by several of the above named.
And all this analysis has exactly proven my point. All of these methods of exploiting weakness mean that each of these characters who can exploit weakness.....can beat him. Some of them rather soundly to boot.
And I have, actually, shown you characters who's powers, abilities, and ethics all match those of Superman. Mutiple characters.
And I absolutely disagree with you. Bar none. You're flip-flopping. You keep going from he's the best because he can't be beat, to he's the best because he best embodies the "hero" traits. He's not the best in either. Above there are characters who are as powerful as him, and some that are moreso. And there are absolutely characters who embody what it means to be a "superhero" just as much...if again not moreso....than Supes does.
The trouble with an arguement of this nature is that I'm quite sure I can imagine scenarios where he'll win every time and you'll do the exact opposite. We each have an EXTENSIVE comprehension of the powers, abilities of all these heroes and can see the battles play out in our heads like an episode of Justice League: Unlimited.
I'm not flip-flopping, everything I said is true. He is that symbol and he's near impossible to defeat. Those are the two major reasons he is the BEST. As a kid, remember pretending to be a superhero playing around with friends? Who did you pick? As a matter of fact, who would you be NOW? I'm picking Superman every day of the week.
And by the way, you proved my point already by bringing in this pantheon of heroes, cause it would literally take this many to put the hurt on him.
Also, if he's not the best there is....then who is? You've yet to show me a character who can stand toe to toe, trade blow for blow, that doesnt have a power that diminishes Clark in some small way. Everybody you mentioned has an ability that weakens him, none of those has the raw power to simply beat him down.
Oh and also, who else have an actual town dedicated to him?
KaNtSt0PMeH
06-04-2012, 10:26
If Dave didn't already have a little girl and Finch didn't have a little man on the way I would say you guys need to get laid lol...
SPARTAAAAAAAAAA!
If Dave didn't already have a little girl and Finch didn't have a little man on the way I would say you guys need to get laid lol...
SPARTAAAAAAAAAA!
Lol IT'S A GEEK SHOWDOWN SON!!!
iamthesgt
06-04-2012, 11:55
I'm not flip-flopping, everything I said is true. He is that symbol and he's near impossible to defeat. Those are the two major reasons he is the BEST. As a kid, remember pretending to be a superhero playing around with friends? Who did you pick? As a matter of fact, who would you be NOW? I'm picking Superman every day of the week.
I much prefer Captain America to Superman as that 'symbol'. Honestly, I rarely played superhero (I liked 'army' better) as a kid, but I know I never picked Superman, and I still wouldn't - I just don't like him. I'm not a big comic nerd, so I can't hang with you guys in arguing which power would beat which, but looking from the outside in, Superman is pretty low on my list
jxspyder
06-04-2012, 12:01
The trouble with an arguement of this nature is that I'm quite sure I can imagine scenarios where he'll win every time and you'll do the exact opposite. We each have an EXTENSIVE comprehension of the powers, abilities of all these heroes and can see the battles play out in our heads like an episode of Justice League: Unlimited.
I'm not flip-flopping, everything I said is true. He is that symbol and he's near impossible to defeat. Those are the two major reasons he is the BEST. As a kid, remember pretending to be a superhero playing around with friends? Who did you pick? As a matter of fact, who would you be NOW? I'm picking Superman every day of the week.
And by the way, you proved my point already by bringing in this pantheon of heroes, cause it would literally take this many to put the hurt on him.
Also, if he's not the best there is....then who is? You've yet to show me a character who can stand toe to toe, trade blow for blow, that doesnt have a power that diminishes Clark in some small way. Everybody you mentioned has an ability that weakens him, none of those has the raw power to simply beat him down.
Oh and also, who else have an actual town dedicated to him?
Wait....so now it's a brute strength matchup? What happened to outsmarting your opponent? Not relying on brute strength, but rather wits.
And I'm absolutely not proving your point by bringing in this pantheon of heroes....because this pantheon is a group of people who each could compete with him one on one.
If you want brute strength, then simply replace "god" with "alien". :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4gN_yc_7ug&feature=related
And while I'm fairly sure that the Hulk wouldn't beat Supes, he could easily stand up to him on brute strength alone. But brute strength has never been a requirement to defeat Superman. More importantly, trying to do so plays to Supes strengths....which is just dumb in the first place.
As for who I picked when I was a kid.....I can guarentee you it was never Superman, lol. Honestly, I think it was Spiderman most often. Or Jimmy Snooka. SUPERFLY!!
jxspyder
06-04-2012, 12:05
If Dave didn't already have a little girl and Finch didn't have a little man on the way I would say you guys need to get laid lol...
SPARTAAAAAAAAAA!
Already more than taken care of.
Geek comes in all shapes and sizes. The comic book geek is no different than the football geek. The only difference is generally the amount of alcohol consumed.....and the fact that the football geeks tend to play dress up more. A geek is a geek is a geek.
jxspyder
06-04-2012, 12:09
Closing arguements today, and tonight/tomorrow we'll kick off a new topic of geekery.
Lets not forget that Marvel almost went out of business, when a few of the exec got caught trading junk bonds or something like that, and I believe Stan Lee was actually forced out of Marvel for a stint.. If not for them rehiring Stan Lee, there very well, may not have been 2 company's to pit against each other.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a stint in the 2000's where Stan Lee actually worked for DC comics, and re-imaged all the major DC superheros :eyebrows:
Agree completely with your assessment though, especially due to the successful stable size advantage Marvel has. You could also go to the movie well, with the best grossing comic book adaptations. Top ten has 8 Marvel IP's, and 2 of Batman.
jxspyder
06-04-2012, 13:16
Lets not forget that Marvel almost went out of business, when a few of the exec got caught trading junk bonds or something like that, and I believe Stan Lee was actually forced out of Marvel for a stint.. If not for them rehiring Stan Lee, there very well, may not have been 2 company's to pit against each other.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a stint in the 2000's where Stan Lee actually worked for DC comics, and re-imaged all the major DC superheros :eyebrows:
The core 5, yep. Is kind of humerous.
CrzyChinook
06-04-2012, 13:35
you know ive always wondered.. and maybe one of you's can answer.. they always tap around the fact that little old goody two shoe's cyclops was and is the
most power mutant of all.. yet we never see it cause hes a good guy.. have they ever expanded on this... im re-reading all the classic xmen's and prof-x has said it a few times... and i remember later on hearing the same thing about old Scott Summers?would be good if they did a villain turn for him...idk just a thought:clap2:
jxspyder
06-04-2012, 14:06
you know ive always wondered.. and maybe one of you's can answer.. they always tap around the fact that little old goody two shoe's cyclops was and is the
most power mutant of all.. yet we never see it cause hes a good guy.. have they ever expanded on this... im re-reading all the classic xmen's and prof-x has said it a few times... and i remember later on hearing the same thing about old Scott Summers?would be good if they did a villain turn for him...idk just a thought:clap2:
While he's definitely not the "most powerful of all" mutants, he's absolutely a very powerful one. To be honest, I'd skipped over him, but realistically, he could be a potential match to Supes as well...both as a combatant and as an icon.
Also, I recant my previous statement that the Hulk more than likely wouldn't be able to beat Superman. Based on the fact that his strength, durability, and endurance.....and the potential strength thereof.....are only limited by his emotion. So the angrier that Superman makes him, the more likely he is to beat Supes down.
This is my closing arguement.
Regardless of whether or not you like Superman, you cannot deny his power. He is simply the Hero all other heroes are compared to and measured up against. And will be known as the most popular and well-known hero of all time.
He is the single most copied hero and is the standard to which all other superheroes are held to. He is THE original good guy. Defender of freedom and justice, the inherent right of all sentient beings.
Be it physical power or staying power, he is and always will be, the BEST.
CrzyChinook
06-04-2012, 14:18
This is my closing arguement.
Regardless of whether or not you like Superman, you cannot deny his power. He is simply the Hero all other heroes are compared to and measured up against. And will be known as the most popular and well-known hero of all time.
He is the single most copied hero and is the standard to which all other superheroes are held to. He is THE original good guy. Defender of freedom and justice, the inherent right of all sentient beings.
Be it physical power or staying power, he is and always will be, the BEST.
and dont forget ....illegal "Alien".... hawhawhaw....:peace:
While he's definitely not the "most powerful of all" mutants, he's absolutely a very powerful one. To be honest, I'd skipped over him, but realistically, he could be a potential match to Supes as well...both as a combatant and as an icon.
Also, I recant my previous statement that the Hulk more than likely wouldn't be able to beat Superman. Based on the fact that his strength, durability, and endurance.....and the potential strength thereof.....are only limited by his emotion. So the angrier that Superman makes him, the more likely he is to beat Supes down.
The Hulk again. Yes, he's a beast, but can he compete with all the elements that Clark brings to the table? No.
If Superman can contain Bizarro's rampages, he most certainly can deal with the child mind of the Hulk. His strength theoretically has no limits. But really, how mad can you get? Theres a cap somewhere and I'm willing to bet Clark will still triumph.
Cyclops isn't an icon. How you even think he is, is crazy talk. May I point out that the wolverine tactic, would work on him as well.
And let's not forget that I'm defending a Superman that's GOOD. Imagine a Superman that's Bad! He'd rule the Earth!
jxspyder
06-04-2012, 14:29
Respondant closing arguement.
Being the first, and being an overpowered mary sue, doesn't make you the best. There's a reason that many consider Magneto the greatest baddy ever, even though he quite clearly can't compete toe to toe with numerous other bad guys.
As far as being the toughest/strongest/best combatant, I'd put numerous other characters....from both DC and Marvel...up against him. As far as being the "iconic" hero that represents all those good traits that make you a hero....again, I'd put numerous characters from both DC and Marvel against him. From Spiderman and Batman, to Captain America and Cyclops all exemplify those traits as well, or better, than Superman.
And as he's a glorified, more Mary Sue'd version of Captain Marvel, it's hard to call him the original.
jxspyder
06-04-2012, 14:48
The Hulk again. Yes, he's a beast, but can he compete with all the elements that Clark brings to the table? No.
If Superman can contain Bizarro's rampages, he most certainly can deal with the child mind of the Hulk. His strength theoretically has no limits. But really, how mad can you get? Theres a cap somewhere and I'm willing to bet Clark will still triumph.
Cyclops isn't an icon. How you even think he is, is crazy talk. May I point out that the wolverine tactic, would work on him as well.
And let's not forget that I'm defending a Superman that's GOOD. Imagine a Superman that's Bad! He'd rule the Earth!
Actually, given that he has survived nuclear explosions and planet shattering blows....yes, I'd absolutely say that he can compete with all the elements that Clark brings to the table.
Actually, Cyclops is absolutely an icon. He's the hand-picked leader of arguably the greatest team of superheroes ever. How you could think he's not, is crazy talk. And again, you're trying to pull out a simple tactic against someone who's spatial awareness and tactical and strategic planning is unparalled, and who's decisions actually get better the faster he comes up with them. All I can think of at this point is you're simply basing this on the movie Cyclops, and completely ignoring the comic version, lol.
And a bad Superman? We've already seen what would happen if Superman went bad. He'd turn in to Bizarro.
Actually, given that he has survived nuclear explosions and planet shattering blows....yes, I'd absolutely say that he can compete with all the elements that Clark brings to the table.
Actually, Cyclops is absolutely an icon. He's the hand-picked leader of arguably the greatest team of superheroes ever. How you could think he's not, is crazy talk. And again, you're trying to pull out a simple tactic against someone who's spatial awareness and tactical and strategic planning is unparalled, and who's decisions actually get better the faster he comes up with them. All I can think of at this point is you're simply basing this on the movie Cyclops, and completely ignoring the comic version, lol.
And a bad Superman? We've already seen what would happen if Superman went bad. He'd turn in to Bizarro.
The elements I was referring to include leadership and the ability to inspire...I don't see Hulk rallying a team to fight with him lol.
Cyclops. The only thing awesome about him is his genes. That's it. His leadership ability has been in question for years. To the point where he is a micron from being a bad guy now. His eye-blasts, while solar powered like Supes, they are "Force blasts", Clarks are Heat based. He'd simply melt Scott where he stood. Yes he's tactically gifted, but if you think he can out maneuver Clark Kent, a hero who's navigated star systems alone and continuously defeated the best tactical minds DC has to offer, like Lex Luthor and General Zod, then I want some of what your smoking. Cause it must be good!
Ultimately, we can do this all day, with zero headway. This debate seems to be closing with the only result being we've established that you don't like Superman.
jxspyder
06-04-2012, 15:57
Ultimately, we can do this all day, with zero headway. This debate seems to be closing with the only result being we've established that you don't like Superman.
And likewise you treat him as the second coming.:p Highlighted by your insistance that any Superhero that can beat Superman must have every single trait of Superman....which to be honest, makes for a lame superhero.
I don't hate him as a character, however I do think that his gimmick is rather lame, and find it generally humerous that he continually fails to move beyond comics. I also don't think he's the grand icon that you do, and find other superheroes to be much better icons. But yes, that's largely because I like the superheroes who have flaws they need to overcome, or are more human. The ones who face temptation and still be the good guy, rather than simply be the good guy because they're the good guy.
So I guess what we agree on, is that this went nowhere :) Neither one of us swaying the other with a valid arguement.
I have to ask though, who do you consider the greatest hero of all time?
I'd like to point out as we conclude that while I made a hefty arguement for the Man of Steel, he isn't my favorite hero.
TODAYS VERDICT:
Marvel vs DC. Winner: Marvel
Superman as the Greatest Hero of all Time.
Defending: SteelHavok
Opposing: JXSpyder
Winner: Draw
iamthesgt
06-04-2012, 19:58
TODAYS VERDICT:
Marvel vs DC. Winner: Marvel
Superman as the Greatest Hero of all Time.
Defending: SteelHavok
Opposing: JXSpyder
Winner: Draw
I think you should appoint an independent judge to arbitrate these discussions.
jxspyder
06-04-2012, 21:53
TODAYS VERDICT:
Marvel vs DC. Winner: Marvel
Superman as the Greatest Hero of all Time.
Defending: SteelHavok
Opposing: JXSpyder
Winner: Draw
I can live with that, lol. I've got an idea for the next one.....just want to make sure it's a solid one.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkah
SSG_Guillermo
06-04-2012, 22:18
Hulk. Wins. Period.:heh:
CrzyChinook
06-04-2012, 22:43
Cyclops. The only thing awesome about him is his genes. That's it. His leadership ability has been in question for years. To the point where he is a micron from being a bad guy now. His eye-blasts, while solar powered like Supes, they are "Force blasts", Clarks are Heat based. He'd simply melt Scott where he stood.
sorry Hav to set the record straight ...and to be honest i thought the same as you .. but from the mouths of Marvel
"Cyclops possesses the mutant ability to project a powerful beam of concussive, ruby-colored force from his eyes. Cyclops's powers were originally believed to be ambient energies (such as solar radiation, photons, and cosmic rays) absorbed and metabolized by his body into concussive blasts that are released from his eyes. However, the energy supply of his optic blasts are later revealed to originate from a non-Einsteinian universe that opens up whenever he uses his optic blasts. Cyclops's eyes not only are organs that utilizes the visible spectrum of light to see the world around it. They are are also inter-dimensional portals between this universe and a non-Einsteinian universe where physical laws as we know them do not pertain. This non-Einsteinian universe is filled with particles that resemble photons, yet they interact with this universe's particles by transferring kinetic energy in the form of gravitons (the particle of gravitation). These particles generate great, directional concussive force when they interact with the objects of this universe. "
i was shocked to read this.. make me more impressed about old clops... i always thought they held him back in the comics and really not letting him Bust out into the Aplha Mutant that he is.. but there always tomorrow..haha
KaNtSt0PMeH
06-04-2012, 22:55
When the fuck do we get ice cream?!?
SPARTAAAAAAAAAA!
jxspyder
06-05-2012, 00:22
Okay, so Marvel vs. DC and Superman Pro and Con are finished and closed down.
Moving forward to the next topic of discussion. I've bounced between numerous ideas, some I'll save for later.........and yes, if you think of a good topic of debate, feel more than free to send me a message with it.......and finally I came upon this one.
Video games have a lot of different character archetypes. From the Space Marine to the scientist, all the way down to the plumber. But there's always a warm place in everyone's heart for that specialist of stealth and sneakery.....the assassin.
Likewise, no series can inspire the vast level of emotion that Star Wars does. Therefore, we'll be combining the two, and bringing up a true battle of the ages...one that we can only wish would have occured.
While his movie time was extremely limited, there is no arguing the fact that few characters have received the fan love that Darth Maul has. Hell, he's the second character who's "death" in the highest level of canon has been retconned due strictly to fan popularity. The soon-to-be Emperor's right hand, the one he sends in to get the job done when none can, the master of the double bladed lightsaber.....Darth Maul is a pure weapon of distruction. And while it's only hinted at in the movie, he's truly a master of assassinating the foes of the Emperor.
Conversely, our second entry has absolutely zero movie time. Yet that hasn't stopped him from becoming a cult icon among the fan base. The personal weapon of an equally iconic character in Jedi Master/Darth/Jedi Master Revan, HK-47 has made a career of destroying meat-bags in service of his creator, especially Jedi meat-bags.
So the discussion:
Who would win in a battle between the two.........HK-47 or Maul?
CrzyChinook
06-05-2012, 01:07
Ooohhh.....that's a tuffy my gut says to go with maul... total bad ass of the entire series but HK-47 isn't one to just dismiss ...this will take some thought ..hmmmm
Sent from my Xoom sitting by the Kandahar Poo Pond
So I'm going with Maul. HK-47's programming is designed to kill JEDI, not Sith. Plus I see Maul just Force crushing him into a small hunk of scrap metal
CrzyChinook
06-05-2012, 02:54
So I'm going with Maul. HK-47's programming is designed to kill JEDI, not Sith. Plus I see Maul just Force crushing him into a small hunk of scrap metal
first .. he was a assassin droid...Revan made him to assassinate political opponents as a more selective way of achieving his goals.. just happen most of those where Jedi.. i really dont think jedi/sith matter to him much..
And yes i agree.. short term.. face to face..Maul hands down.. but maul has been killed what twice?three? which was impressive that he came back but still got his ass handed to him by middle age Ben(DH# Old Wounds)..and then luke in the end just switched him off.... thats it for maul..
HK-47 has died at least 10 times if not more.. and just keeps going on and on... i mean read his impressive past he lasted over 4000 years.. he even became a ship.. he never gives up ... you might win the battle but he will win the war.. tuff sob.. and since he looks like a protocol droid you might not even notice hes in the room.. just another droid...till its too late.. but in the end had a unfortunate ending also.. became a jet pack...? i would love to know how the heck that happen..
in the end HK has a impressive kill streak.. and even after Maul's Badass'ery.. i give this round to HK.. "You MeatBag!!"
*note Maul is my sec fav in the star wars uni. with Boba being first..
Didn't Wonder Woman actually come before him though?
This is my closing arguement.
Regardless of whether or not you like Superman, you cannot deny his power. He is simply the Hero all other heroes are compared to and measured up against. And will be known as the most popular and well-known hero of all time.
He is the single most copied hero and is the standard to which all other superheroes are held to. He is THE original good guy. Defender of freedom and justice, the inherent right of all sentient beings.
Be it physical power or staying power, he is and always will be, the BEST.
iamthesgt
06-05-2012, 09:36
first .. he was a assassin droid...Revan made him to assassinate political opponents as a more selective way of achieving his goals.. just happen most of those where Jedi.. i really dont think jedi/sith matter to him much..
And yes i agree.. short term.. face to face..Maul hands down.. but maul has been killed what twice?three? which was impressive that he came back but still got his ass handed to him by middle age Ben(DH# Old Wounds)..and then luke in the end just switched him off.... thats it for maul..
HK-47 has died at least 10 times if not more.. and just keeps going on and on... i mean read his impressive past he lasted over 4000 years.. he even became a ship.. he never gives up ... you might win the battle but he will win the war.. tuff sob.. and since he looks like a protocol droid you might not even notice hes in the room.. just another droid...till its too late.. but in the end had a unfortunate ending also.. became a jet pack...? i would love to know how the heck that happen..
in the end HK has a impressive kill streak.. and even after Maul's Badass'ery.. i give this round to HK.. "You MeatBag!!"
*note Maul is my sec fav in the star wars uni. with Boba being first..
I have read a ton of SW literature, so maybe I'm just missing something here but...when did Maul die? (Other than SWI, of course)?
CrzyChinook
06-05-2012, 10:03
I have read a ton of SW literature, so maybe I'm just missing something here but...when did Maul die? (Other than SWI, of course)?
the reference to middle age Ben(DH# Old Wounds).. i have Dark Horse Star Wars: Visionaries which was a bunch of short comic story's..and it had the story of Old Wounds..
its when maul finds lars homestead and ben jumps out and the two fight.. doesnt end well for maul..ben's lightsaber off.. press to the fore head.. SIZZLLLE... not good for maul and i dont think hes coming back after that one..
first .. he was a assassin droid...Revan made him to assassinate political opponents as a more selective way of achieving his goals.. just happen most of those where Jedi.. i really dont think jedi/sith matter to him much..
And yes i agree.. short term.. face to face..Maul hands down.. but maul has been killed what twice?three? which was impressive that he came back but still got his ass handed to him by middle age Ben(DH# Old Wounds)..and then luke in the end just switched him off.... thats it for maul..
HK-47 has died at least 10 times if not more.. and just keeps going on and on... i mean read his impressive past he lasted over 4000 years.. he even became a ship.. he never gives up ... you might win the battle but he will win the war.. tuff sob.. and since he looks like a protocol droid you might not even notice hes in the room.. just another droid...till its too late.. but in the end had a unfortunate ending also.. became a jet pack...? i would love to know how the heck that happen..
in the end HK has a impressive kill streak.. and even after Maul's Badass'ery.. i give this round to HK.. "You MeatBag!!"
*note Maul is my sec fav in the star wars uni. with Boba being first..
Knew all that, still gonna say Maul could put the hurt on HK.
CrzyChinook
06-05-2012, 10:29
oh correction!!! i just re read old wounds.. i was mistaken.. Ben did not kill maul.. he hesitated.. Owen killed him with his rifle cause Ben hesitated
iamthesgt
06-05-2012, 10:33
the reference to middle age Ben(DH# Old Wounds).. i have Dark Horse Star Wars: Visionaries which was a bunch of short comic story's..and it had the story of Old Wounds..
its when maul finds lars homestead and ben jumps out and the two fight.. doesnt end well for maul..ben's lightsaber off.. press to the fore head.. SIZZLLLE... not good for maul and i dont think hes coming back after that one..
Ahh...never read any SW Comic series. Isn't Visionaries non-canon though?
CrzyChinook
06-05-2012, 10:41
Ahh...never read any SW Comic series. Isn't Visionaries non-canon though?
IDK.. but this is what wookieepedia has to say bout the story...When questioned about the timeline for the stories of Star Wars: Visionaries, Leland Chee stated that this story was non-canon. However, The Story of General Grievous: Lord of War by Abel G. Peña has a sentence which implies Old Wounds may just be canon: "The Soulless One was eventually tracked down by a cyborg acquaintance of Obi-Wan's, an old enemy who anonymously reported the ship to the local Imperial authorities." Additionally, although Watto is shown to be still alive in 1 ABY in Star Wars Galaxies, the Toydarian in this story is never explicitly identified as Watto.
iamthesgt
06-05-2012, 11:41
IDK.. but this is what wookieepedia has to say bout the story...When questioned about the timeline for the stories of Star Wars: Visionaries, Leland Chee stated that this story was non-canon. However, The Story of General Grievous: Lord of War by Abel G. Peña has a sentence which implies Old Wounds may just be canon: "The Soulless One was eventually tracked down by a cyborg acquaintance of Obi-Wan's, an old enemy who anonymously reported the ship to the local Imperial authorities." Additionally, although Watto is shown to be still alive in 1 ABY in Star Wars Galaxies, the Toydarian in this story is never explicitly identified as Watto.
So...who knows. Interesting. I think there are large numbers of comics in both C-canon and S-canon.
Shadowdawn
06-05-2012, 13:26
I actually dressed up as Darth Maul when I went to the midnight premier in 99. Skipped school to stand in line for tickets then went to dinner. I stopped at wall mart before the movie and some little kid got freaked out and started crying. Best part was waiting for the movie to start, people had brought beach balls and we hit those around the theater while a stand up comic did some jokes at the front. When the green Lucasfilm screen came up everyone cheered. It was great being in a theater with people who actually cared about the movie and did not want to disturb others. The only time I really remember anyone making noise was when Darth Maul got killed.
Back on topic..it would depend on the fight. Straight up fight goes to Maul but if HK catches him unaware then HK could win. I would love to see HK vs all the IG-88's.
jxspyder
06-08-2012, 16:49
So since this one seems to have limped off in to the sunset, let's move to a, hopefully, more active debate.
For all the transformers fans:
3309
Megan Fox or Rosie Huntington Whiteley? Who's the hottest?
KaNtSt0PMeH
06-08-2012, 20:44
Megan Fox easy choice. She's DTF. lol
SSG_Guillermo
06-08-2012, 21:57
Megan Fox easy choice. She's DTF. lol
Definitely Jared's Mo...I mean Megan Fox no doubt about it!!!...lol...
GUILLERMO SMAAAAASSSSSHHH TAPATALK 2!!!
CrzyChinook
06-08-2012, 22:25
So since this one seems to have limped off in to the sunset, let's move to a, hopefully, more active debate.
For all the transformers fans:
3309
Megan Fox or Rosie Huntington Whiteley? Who's the hottest?
WHAAA?? Arguably one of our biggest Star Wars Geeks.. and you do not weigh in?? what the heck jxspyder???
so who won?
and for the next.... Megan!! Hands down.. she might suck in acting in some peoples opinion.. but she wayyy hotter....then ..who?? lol plus she down right ole American .. with a little Tennessee swag with that Irish/native American look... hubba hubba
I hate her guts, but Megan. I don't dig blondes.
jxspyder
06-08-2012, 22:35
WHAAA?? Arguably one of our biggest Star Wars Geeks.. and you do not weigh in?? what the heck jxspyder???
so who won?
and for the next.... Megan!! Hands down.. she might suck in acting in some peoples opinion.. but she wayyy hotter....then ..who?? lol plus she down right ole American .. with a little Tennessee swag with that Irish/native American look... hubba hubba
I wanted to see everyone else's opinion. Personally, I think it's whoever's plan goes off first and gets the element of surprise.
On these two, Megan Fox has the.DTF slut lool, but Rosie has the girl next door with the DSL's. If I had to pick, though, I'd go with Rosie because there's more of her with less clothing, plus all her friends are underwear models just like her.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkah
CrzyChinook
07-17-2012, 22:34
*****BUMP*****
WHATS THE NEXT SHOWDOWN??????
jxspyder
07-18-2012, 01:59
*****BUMP*****
WHATS THE NEXT SHOWDOWN??????
Well, I've been in the hospital waiting room for the past 6 hours watching Harry Potter, so I'm kind of screwed when it comes to good questions. If someone wants to pm one, I'd appreciate it.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkah
Rickety Rob
07-18-2012, 05:26
Megan Fox easy choice. She's DTF. lol
Ahahahaha! True, but in the hands of who is hotter than who. I'm going with Rosie Huntington Whiteley. Love that accent of hers
CrzyChinook
07-18-2012, 08:38
Well, I've been in the hospital waiting room for the past 6 hours watching Harry Potter, so I'm kind of screwed when it comes to good questions. If someone wants to pm one, I'd appreciate it.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkah
harry potter not so bad to watch... at least its not 6 hours of the lifetime network!! lol
Rickety Rob
07-18-2012, 08:45
3737 vs 3738
Who would win in an all out battle?
Valorfall
07-18-2012, 09:27
So since this one seems to have limped off in to the sunset, let's move to a, hopefully, more active debate.
For all the transformers fans:
3309
Megan Fox or Rosie Huntington Whiteley? Who's the hottest?
Rosie Huntington hands down. That girl can have you addicted to her body like crack lol.
Valorfall
07-18-2012, 09:29
3737 vs 3738
Who would win in an all out battle?
..... Are you serious...
3738
The man is a legend....
iamthesgt
07-18-2012, 09:33
Rosie Huntington hands down. That girl can have you addicted to her body like crack lol.
And chances are Fox is already on crack lol
CrzyChinook
07-18-2012, 10:05
..... Are you serious...
3738
The man is a legend....
well technincally both were legends.....lol
Leonidas went down at the Battle of Thermopylae with 300 spartans..plus all the other greek states 14,000 strong that went against Xerxes
army ranging from 50,000 to 200,000 ..
and then ya got...
Spartacus which commanded a army of "not warriors" but slaves and kick the roman empires ass for quite some time with his army of 70,000 till Battle of the Siler River... pretty impressive
but total badassery my vote goes for Leonidas.. doing more with less!!!
Rickety Rob
07-18-2012, 10:22
well technincally both were legends.....lol
Leonidas went down at the Battle of Thermopylae with 300 spartans..plus all the other greek states 14,000 strong that went against Xerxes
army ranging from 50,000 to 200,000 ..
and then ya got...
Spartacus which commanded a army of "not warriors" but slaves and kick the roman empires ass for quite some time with his army of 70,000 till Battle of the Siler River... pretty impressive
but total badassery my vote goes for Leonidas.. doing more with less!!!
But if you take away the choke point in which Leonidas maintained. Than how would you vote. I'm sure 300 Spartans could not take and army of 1000. Let alone 50,000-200,000.
Specops03SS
07-18-2012, 13:34
Wow I cant believe I havent read this yet.EPIC BATTLES!
They are both two of the baddest warriors. As to who would win...honestly I think its a fight to the death for both of them. Neither would walk out of that battle because they would die,taking the other one with them
jxspyder
10-10-2012, 11:35
New war!!
Batman vs. Iron Man.
While Iron Man is clearly superior, Finch thinks that Batman deserves points for bringing a knife to a gunfight. Discuss.
Rickety Rob
10-10-2012, 11:45
I agree with this
Philanthropists. Geniuses. Heroes. Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne have a lot in common — but these billionaire playboys are about to meet their greatest foes yet: each other.
In anticipation of the release this week of "Iron Man," and "The Dark Knight" soon after, we wanted to know who would win an ultimate showdown between these two comic titans.
Who comes out on top? We break it down by category to find out.
Wealth
Batman: Bruce Wayne's personal wealth is estimated at $6.8 billion, thanks to Wayne Corp. and a sizeable inheritance.
Iron Man: Tony Stark's wealth, meanwhile, is a comparably paltry $3 billion, almost entirely from Stark Industries.
Verdict: Both numbers come courtesy of Forbes magazine and were determined by pulling random numbers out of thin air. Both combatants are obscenely wealthy and can buy and sell anything they want. Neither faces any limitation.
Edge: Draw
Motivation
Batman: Spurred to be a crime-fighter after witnessing his parents' death, Bruce Wayne is motivated by guilt and hatred to clean up the streets of Gotham.
Iron Man: Tony Stark becomes Iron Man after being captured and held as a prisoner of war. A true hero, he selflessly and altruistically decides to better mankind through his technology.
Verdict: As for behavioral modification, any Psych 101 student could tell you that positive reinforcement just doesn't come close to negative reinforcement in terms of knowledge, duration and strength. Iron Man might eventually take pity on you, but Batman will always hate you. In a battle of wills, that counts for something.
Edge: Batman
Intelligence
Batman: Genius-level intellect, called the world's greatest detective by his enemy Ra's al Ghul.
Iron Man: Genius-level intellect, called the world's greatest "futurist" by fellow superhero Reed Richards.
Verdict: Both are highly capable thinkers, but IQ is a relative measure, not an absolute one. So how do they stack up to their peers? Batman is universally hailed as the smartest man in D.C. Comics, with Lex Luthor his only real competition. Iron Man, by contrast, is at least the fifth or sixth smartest character in the Marvel universe, with Richards, Victor Von Doom, Bruce Banner and Hank Pym all believed to be more intelligent.
Edge: Batman
Strength
Batman: The perfect human specimen, Batman has spent years training himself into peak physical condition. He is proficient in all forms of fighting and a master of martial arts.
Iron Man: Stark's strength comes from his superpower armor, which houses the world's best weapons systems. In addition, the suit grants him preternatural strength and endurance and enables him to fly.
Verdict: In hand-to-hand combat, it's no contest. Stark's armor is so powerful, it might very well swing the entire contest in his favor.
Edge: Iron Man
Sidekicks
Iron Man: Jim Rhodes, the superhuman War Machine, who wears a suit of armor that has powers darn close to the one worn by Stark. Stark is also an integral part of the Avengers, and can therefore call upon just about every Marvel hero, from the Fantastic Four to the god Thor.
Batman: Dick Grayson, a prepubescent boy in tights. Most of the rest of the Justice League wouldn't spit on him if he were on fire.
Verdict: If our heroes need to call in some support, Stark wins in a landslide.
Edge: Iron Man
Glaring Weakness
Iron Man: Stark has been known to hit the bottle every once in a while, making him vulnerable at best and unavailable at worst.
Batman: Due to his upbringing and strict moral code, Wayne is unable to trust people and, oftentimes, isn't able to see any good in them at all.
Verdict: Batman's biggest weakness may turn out to be his greatest strength. Because he was unable to trust the Justice League, for instance, he kept dossiers on all the members, learning their secret identities and weaknesses should he ever need to take them down. He investigated Superman. Do we think he wouldn't also have a file on that goody-goody Tony Stark? Stark's weakness, meanwhile, just makes him incorrigible.
Edge: Batman
Biggest Battle
Iron Man: In the recent comic miniseries "World War Hulk," Stark took on and was utterly embarrassed by the big green guy. For good measure, the Hulk even destroyed Stark Tower.
Batman: Batman has beaten Superman.
Verdict: Batman beat the Man of Steel. 'Nuff said.
Edge: Batman
Overall
In close combat, and with no preparation, Iron Man would make mince meat out of the Dark Knight with his superior strength. But Batman knows this and would not only then know Stark's weaknesses, but would have a contingency plan to take him down. This plan would probably involve overtaking Stark's armor, making him Batman's slave.
One-on-one, it's not really close: Batman in a landslide.
jxspyder
10-10-2012, 12:03
I agree with this
Negative ghostrider. Maybe 6-7 years ago. Not so much now.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw
Rickety Rob
10-10-2012, 12:14
Negative ghostrider. Maybe 6-7 years ago. Not so much now.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw
I still think batman would win. I did get that information from MTV.com lol
CrzyChinook
10-10-2012, 12:21
nope dont agree at all..
1.Wealth .. well im sure if Tony wanted to he could look to other markets.. he could be worth just as much as Bruce.. he choose's not too...he just doesn't really concern himself with that and focus'es his attention on his company!... a focused man!
2.Motivation... i dont see how being a hateful spiteful asshole to everyone that trust no one...this makes you a better person? nahh tony could have been that same guy as Bruce but choose not be.. that make him a better person and a win in my book
3. Intelligence.. ok coming from a gear head as myself.. building your own tech and not paying someone to make it for you sorry ass.. way smarter.. and tony act more aloof to throw people off on how intelligent he really is... come one hes always two steps ahead.. and comparing him to his peers .. just shows you that Marvel Universe is just that more diverse than the DC universe!!
4.Strength... agreed with suit but without it... even though his life threatening condition.. tony has always persevered!! with no suit he still is no slouch!!
5.Side kicks.. agreed ..tony got pals shit ton of bad ass pals! but then when you treat your friends like friends you can count on them!.. not secretly trying to figure out how to take them down.. sorry what a dick move!.. if i treated any friend like that .. then he really isnt a friend..
6. Weakness... sometime his weakness gets the best of him .. but goes to show you hes a regular joe.. just like us and maybe its what make him work so hard at being so good... not like that distrustful SOB.. dude seriously get over yourself.. your a glorified vigilante!
7. Battles.. dude thats hulk... has batman ever went against hulk? cant shine no green rock at hulk and whip his ass??? sheesh..
clearly the landslide is in the opposite direction! IRONMAN!!!!
Bearing all that in mind, Batman may be the bigger asshole, but he is still clearly the cream of the crop when it comes to strategy and tactics. Yea I agree Tony is a more brilliant engineer and yea Rogers trained him to box, but:
A.) Battles aren't won by hardware alone, they're won by strategy.
B.) Rogers isn't the best hand to hand combatant in the Marvel Universe, but Bruce IS the best martial artist in the DCU.
Money doesn't factor in really, as both men could take steps to match or exceed the other, so that's out.
Psychologically? We all can agree Bruce is seriously fucked up...but so is Tony. Recovering alcoholic, God complex, serious paranoia as well. If you don't think he engineered the Marvel Civil War just to keep his own tabs on everybody, then you missed the point of that whole series. Tony is the MU's Bruce Wayne.
As for Batman defeating the Hulk, really? Nevermind that they don't even exist in the same plane of existence, lets say they do meet. Time and time again comics has shown us that brains ALWAYS wins over brawn. ALWAYS. Bruce has defeated Clark over and over again, do you really think he would be done in by a 13 ft. tall Green powerhouse with the mind of a 3 year old? Highly doubt it.
Oh and as far as Batman bringing a knife to a gunfight, yea he does. EVERY TIME. And still comes out on top.
jxspyder
10-10-2012, 17:32
nope dont agree at all..
1.Wealth .. well im sure if Tony wanted to he could look to other markets.. he could be worth just as much as Bruce.. he choose's not too...he just doesn't really concern himself with that and focus'es his attention on his company!... a focused man!
2.Motivation... i dont see how being a hateful spiteful asshole to everyone that trust no one...this makes you a better person? nahh tony could have been that same guy as Bruce but choose not be.. that make him a better person and a win in my book
3. Intelligence.. ok coming from a gear head as myself.. building your own tech and not paying someone to make it for you sorry ass.. way smarter.. and tony act more aloof to throw people off on how intelligent he really is... come one hes always two steps ahead.. and comparing him to his peers .. just shows you that Marvel Universe is just that more diverse than the DC universe!!
4.Strength... agreed with suit but without it... even though his life threatening condition.. tony has always persevered!! with no suit he still is no slouch!!
5.Side kicks.. agreed ..tony got pals shit ton of bad ass pals! but then when you treat your friends like friends you can count on them!.. not secretly trying to figure out how to take them down.. sorry what a dick move!.. if i treated any friend like that .. then he really isnt a friend..
6. Weakness... sometime his weakness gets the best of him .. but goes to show you hes a regular joe.. just like us and maybe its what make him work so hard at being so good... not like that distrustful SOB.. dude seriously get over yourself.. your a glorified vigilante!
7. Battles.. dude thats hulk... has batman ever went against hulk? cant shine no green rock at hulk and whip his ass??? sheesh..
clearly the landslide is in the opposite direction! IRONMAN!!!!
Don't agree in the slightest either, but for some more info.
1. As of 2010, Forbes has Stark at #4, and Wayne at #7.
2. Motivation.....not a contest, both are equally fucked up and equally motivated.
3. Intelligence. Wayne may be the best detective in DC, but Stark is one of the single smartest individual in Marvel. He's on par with all the greats (Reeds, Pym, Banner) in their own respective fields, and is above them all in his own.
4. Strength. While Wayne may have a slight advantage in a fully unarmed sparring contest, when it comes to Hero vs. Hero, the armor is a part of Stark. Much like blood or bone, it's a part of his body. And the suit puts him so far above Wayne in this realm that it's not even a contest.
5. Sidekicks. War Machine vs. Robin.......like this is a contest in the least?
6. Weaknesses. You've (not Chinook) clearly never read anything post 2006 if you think that Stark is going to get himself lost in a bottle anytime soon. His alcoholism is simply proof once again that Marvel takes strides to make their superheroes.....real people.
7. Battles. Yeah, Stark lost to the Hulk....who simply isn't stoppable as the Hulk. And Batman lost to Bane....a guy hopped up on speed.
Moving on...
Bearing all that in mind, Batman may be the bigger asshole, but he is still clearly the cream of the crop when it comes to strategy and tactics. Yea I agree Tony is a more brilliant engineer and yea Rogers trained him to box, but:
A.) Battles aren't won by hardware alone, they're won by strategy.
B.) Rogers isn't the best hand to hand combatant in the Marvel Universe, but Bruce IS the best martial artist in the DCU.
Money doesn't factor in really, as both men could take steps to match or exceed the other, so that's out.
Psychologically? We all can agree Bruce is seriously fucked up...but so is Tony. Recovering alcoholic, God complex, serious paranoia as well. If you don't think he engineered the Marvel Civil War just to keep his own tabs on everybody, then you missed the point of that whole series. Tony is the MU's Bruce Wayne.
As for Batman defeating the Hulk, really? Nevermind that they don't even exist in the same plane of existence, lets say they do meet. Time and time again comics has shown us that brains ALWAYS wins over brawn. ALWAYS. Bruce has defeated Clark over and over again, do you really think he would be done in by a 13 ft. tall Green powerhouse with the mind of a 3 year old? Highly doubt it.
A.) No they're not, yes they absolutely are.
B.) Actually, he is arguably one of the best in Marvel, and that's debatable since there's several who are Batman's equal in DC.
More importantly, you're ignoring Tony's armor. Which is a part of him. Not a suit, a part of his body. Which gives him tremendous advantages.
While I agree that he's definitely the Bruce Wayne of Marvel in regards to keeping tabs on people......yeah, you might want to rethink that whole "Tony engineered the Civil War to keep tabs on people" bit. There's a little more to it than that.
And going back to the Hulk. Yeah, Batman was able to defeat Superman by waving around some green rocks. And then had his ass handed to him by Bane. None of which translates to his being able to defeat Hulk. The smartest, strongest, brightest, bravest.....the absolute best of the best are unable to beat Hulk when he's angry. Batman doesn't stand a chance. I mean, the only guy who can beat Hulk when he's raging....Spiderman. With a knock-knock joke even. Bats doesn't have anything on Spiderman's innate power of humor.
jxspyder
10-10-2012, 17:32
Oh and as far as Batman bringing a knife to a gunfight, yea he does. EVERY TIME. And still comes out on top.
Except this time.
iamthesgt
10-10-2012, 18:13
Meh. I dislike all superheroes with superpowers, so I'll take Batman or Iron Man over any of them any day. Money money money!
Moving on...
A.) No they're not, yes they absolutely are.
B.) Actually, he is arguably one of the best in Marvel, and that's debatable since there's several who are Batman's equal in DC.
A.) Glad we finally agree on something...
B.) Again we agree. Steve Rogers is "arguably one of the best", but NOT the best. And since defeating Shiva, Bruce is now considered the worlds (DC) foremost authority in hand to hand combat.
More importantly, you're ignoring Tony's armor. Which is a part of him. Not a suit, a part of his body. Which gives him tremendous advantages.
While I agree that he's definitely the Bruce Wayne of Marvel in regards to keeping tabs on people......yeah, you might want to rethink that whole "Tony engineered the Civil War to keep tabs on people" bit. There's a little more to it than that.
Tony's Armor. Yes it's part of him now, nanotechnology and all that right? Take it away and what is he? A lesser capable Bruce Wayne. Batman is known for engineering solutions to seemingly impossible situations. I've no doubt he could find a way to rid Tony of the advantage of his suit.
I firmly believe that Tony exacerbated the Civil War purposefully with the intention of gaining the upper hand in the MU. And if memory serves, it was you Dave that pointed out that he was pulling the strings from behind the scenes in the first place...
And going back to the Hulk. Yeah, Batman was able to defeat Superman by waving around some green rocks. And then had his ass handed to him by Bane. None of which translates to his being able to defeat Hulk. The smartest, strongest, brightest, bravest.....the absolute best of the best are unable to beat Hulk when he's angry. Batman doesn't stand a chance. I mean, the only guy who can beat Hulk when he's raging....Spiderman. With a knock-knock joke even. Bats doesn't have anything on Spiderman's innate power of humor.
Ugh...I HATE the "He couldn't defeat The Hulk!" debates. Ok so now your saying Spider-Man can beat Hulk, but Batman can't? I simply don't believe that...but it doesn't matter cause it can't happen.
jxspyder
10-11-2012, 00:59
A.) Glad we finally agree on something...
B.) Again we agree. Steve Rogers is "arguably one of the best", but NOT the best. And since defeating Shiva, Bruce is now considered the worlds (DC) foremost authority in hand to hand combat.
Which is odd, since Bruce still considers her to be the best, even though he's beaten her once. Which would make him.....one of the best. :p
Tony's Armor. Yes it's part of him now, nanotechnology and all that right? Take it away and what is he? A lesser capable Bruce Wayne. Batman is known for engineering solutions to seemingly impossible situations. I've no doubt he could find a way to rid Tony of the advantage of his suit.
And how do you suggest taking it away from him? It's a part of him. If you take away Bruce Wayne's left nut, he's probably not as good either. And you can't assume. Otherwise, we'd have to assume that thanks to Bleeding Edge, Stark has the upper hand at all times, with his ability to basically connect with all technology.
I firmly believe that Tony exacerbated the Civil War purposefully with the intention of gaining the upper hand in the MU. And if memory serves, it was you Dave that pointed out that he was pulling the strings from behind the scenes in the first place...
Negative Ghostrider. I pointed out that he had used his insider knowledge of the Civil War to ensure that all frontline providers......EMT, Police, Fire.....were provided for. He also used it to create a better prison system for super-villians, and used the attack on the Atlanteans to help stop the Civil War. But no where in the storyline will you find a reference that he did it to better himself. Unless you count Falcon-Man or whatever the hell his name is calling him a sell-out.
Especially since, you know, he was the one trying to stop it from ever happening in the first place.
Ugh...I HATE the "He couldn't defeat The Hulk!" debates. Ok so now your saying Spider-Man can beat Hulk, but Batman can't? I simply don't believe that...but it doesn't matter cause it can't happen.
Because Spider-man did defeat him. He's one of the only superheroes to have done so. Probably because he wasn't trying to beat him, but rather get his help.
And it's not like it's not right up there with "Superman can defeat anyone" arguements, right? He's the Hulk. He has limitless potential. The more you piss him off, the more powerful he gets.
1. You can't possibly think that Tony could defeat Bruce hand to hand. That's laughable...
2. Your talking about Iron Man like he has no weakness, believe me when I say that is one of the things Bruce does best, exploit weakness. If there's a way for Batman to defeat Iron Man's tech, he'd find it. He's defeated Brainiac and is the only living being whose ever evaded Darksied's Omega Beams! Come on, Tony Stark is a chump compared to these two.
3. Isn't the only tech Tony can "psychically" interface with Stark Industries tech? Maybe I'm wrong....
The Hulk. Powered by rage...what happens when his anger subsides? Like say when Sentry is present? Or when he reverts back to Banner? He may have "limitless potential" (which I doubt), but he still has to breathe right? Arguing that Batman can beat him is dumb, cause like I said, they'd never fight. I didn't bring it up anyway. I'm just saying I think Bruce would have a chance.
And Bane? Bane is HIGHLY underestimated. He's a Tactical GENIUS, even more so than Bruce. Even with that fact, Bruce overcame adversity and did what he does best....win. Over and over again.
I agree with you on the sidekick comparison. Even though War Machine isn't really a true side kick. I can't stand the Robin character.
jxspyder
10-11-2012, 02:40
1. You can't possibly think that Tony could defeat Bruce hand to hand. That's laughable...
2. Your talking about Iron Man like he has no weakness, believe me when I say that is one of the things Bruce does best, exploit weakness. If there's a way for Batman to defeat Iron Man's tech, he'd find it. He's defeated Brainiac and is the only living being whose ever evaded Darksied's Omega Beams! Come on, Tony Stark is a chump compared to these two.
3. Isn't the only tech Tony can "psychically" interface with Stark Industries tech? Maybe I'm wrong....
The Hulk. Powered by rage...what happens when his anger subsides? Like say when Sentry is present? Or when he reverts back to Banner? He may have "limitless potential" (which I doubt), but he still has to breathe right? Arguing that Batman can beat him is dumb, cause like I said, they'd never fight. I didn't bring it up anyway. I'm just saying I think Bruce would have a chance.
And Bane? Bane is HIGHLY underestimated. He's a Tactical GENIUS, even more so than Bruce. Even with that fact, Bruce overcame adversity and did what he does best....win. Over and over again.
I agree with you on the sidekick comparison. Even though War Machine isn't really a true side kick. I can't stand the Robin character.
1. Except it's not laughable, that's all I'm trying to say. Bruce Wayne is one of the greatest hand to hand combatants in DC. Tony was trained by one of the greatest in Marvel. While it's likely that if for some ungodly reason they were fighting in their boxers, Batman would win, the simple fact is that they're not going to be.
2. Never said he doesn't have a weakness. Guess who else has weaknesses though?
Seriously though. "If there's a way, he'll find it" my ass. The guy can be, and has before, been beaten.
3. No, its not. For all intents and purposes, his brain is a supercomputer.
What happens whenever someone tries to kill Banner again? Oh, the Hulk takes over. And what was the result of that fight with Sentry again? Who won in the end?
Yeah, after losing Batman came back and won. But in order for him to come back and win......he had to lose.
Both are billionaires. Both are exceptionally smart. Geniuses even. Both have extreme motivation to do what they do. But when it comes to the toys, Starks are better. And in this fight, that's going to be the deciding factor.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw
Rickety Rob
10-11-2012, 05:07
Meh. I dislike all superheroes with superpowers, so I'll take Batman or Iron Man over any of them any day. Money money money!
That's because in order for them to be a superhero and have all the stuff to give them super like powers, they need money money money. I agree with you 100 percent too, but i'll still stick with superman hands down
iamthesgt
10-11-2012, 08:38
That's because in order for them to be a superhero and have all the stuff to give them super like powers, they need money money money. I agree with you 100 percent too, but i'll still stick with superman hands down
Naw I don't like superpowers. That's why I like Iron Man and Batman - they don't have superpowers.
1. Except it's not laughable, that's all I'm trying to say. Bruce Wayne is one of the greatest hand to hand combatants in DC. Tony was trained by one of the greatest in Marvel. While it's likely that if for some ungodly reason they were fighting in their boxers, Batman would win, the simple fact is that they're not going to be.
2. Never said he doesn't have a weakness. Guess who else has weaknesses though?
Seriously though. "If there's a way, he'll find it" my ass. The guy can be, and has before, been beaten.
3. No, its not. For all intents and purposes, his brain is a supercomputer.
What happens whenever someone tries to kill Banner again? Oh, the Hulk takes over. And what was the result of that fight with Sentry again? Who won in the end?
Yeah, after losing Batman came back and won. But in order for him to come back and win......he had to lose.
Both are billionaires. Both are exceptionally smart. Geniuses even. Both have extreme motivation to do what they do. But when it comes to the toys, Starks are better. And in this fight, that's going to be the deciding factor.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw
1. Ok odds are, your right. With his suit, Tony has the clear advantage one on one.
2. Of course he has a weakness, he's just a man after all. I was just trying to point out that he has an extraordinary ability to come out the victor against some of DCU's powerhouse names. When all he is is flesh and blood.
3. Ok, I was incorrect.
The Hulk is a funny subject cause apparently he never dies. I've seen runs where he is the sole survivor on Earth after everyone dies of nuclear war (The Maestro) and I've also seen him killed by Wolverine (Old Man Logan). It basically all depends on who's writing him at that point in time.
Sentry's calming effect lost its luster because of two factors, a.) The smarter Hulk gets, the less it works and b.) The Sentry is practically mentally ill.
Yes, Bane beat him, I never said he was unbeatable, he's lost to a host of villains. But what's the end result of all those engagements???
But your last statement I agree with. Because I've forgotten a major factor in most, if not all, of Batman's victories...Preparation. Bruce needed some prep time to defeat the heavy hitters in the DCU. He even took out the JLA, but with preparation.
The fact of the matter is this: In a spontaneous battle with both men knowing nothing of the other, Iron Man would most likely win. But, give Batman enough time to formulate a plan and he would definitely be the victor. Because, lets face it, that's how he beats everybody.
CrzyChinook
10-11-2012, 09:22
The fact of the matter is this: In a spontaneous battle with both men knowing nothing of the other, Iron Man would most likely win. But, give Batman enough time to formulate a plan and he would definitely be the victor. Because, lets face it, that's how he beats everybody.
all were very good points and id have to agree!.. specifically this one above!! nicely argued and defended!!
I have to give Tony Stark credit. He did almost kill the Pheonix Force after all.
jxspyder
10-20-2012, 22:16
Enterprise vs. Executer!!
4231
My points from the other thread:
"Ok at this point you must think I ENJOY disagreeing with you. LoL :p Still, I do not believe that any of those wings of TIE fighters (which don't have shields) would damage the shields of the Enterprise. The Federation simply has better tech. And she may be a bit on the big side, but she's maneuverable as hell. Enterprise could absolutely tackle the SD, beat down her shields with photon torpedoes and turn it into a giant flaming triangle. All the Enterprise has to do is shoot out the shield generators and blast the bridge....like that A-Wing did.
And as far as crew goes, when have any members of the Empire been competent? I mean unless your gonna say Admiral Thrawn is commanding her. But I'd pit Kirk, Picard hell, even Sisco against the Empires best and brightest. Yea Han is good. I never heard of those other guys you mentioned..."
And...
"Or, an away team beams into the SD Bridge wipes everyone out and bounces...."
CrzyChinook
10-20-2012, 22:52
My points from the other thread:
"Ok at this point you must think I ENJOY disagreeing with you. LoL :p Still, I do not believe that any of those wings of TIE fighters (which don't have shields) would damage the shields of the Enterprise. The Federation simply has better tech. And she may be a bit on the big side, but she's maneuverable as hell. Enterprise could absolutely tackle the SD, beat down her shields with photon torpedoes and turn it into a giant flaming triangle. All the Enterprise has to do is shoot out the shield generators and blast the bridge....like that A-Wing did.
And as far as crew goes, when have any members of the Empire been competent? I mean unless your gonna say Admiral Thrawn is commanding her. But I'd pit Kirk, Picard hell, even Sisco against the Empires best and brightest. Yea Han is good. I never heard of those other guys you mentioned..."
And...
"Or, an away team beams into the SD Bridge wipes everyone out and bounces...."
but this is a classic Good Guys Vs Bad Guys.. and the prime directive for first contact and stuff would negate their tech!! they would try and be nice and say hello.. the Empire on the other hand would tell them surrender... or... OOPS did we blow you out of space.. sorry our bad.. NOT!!... let alone you bring in the Force.. the dark side of the force.. sheesh they wouldn't stand a chance with vader...
now on a tech side and crew side yes the enterprise is faster , nimbler, higher tech(maybe) and a stellar crew ..top of their classes! and the empire.. yeah not so much but it all goes back to who gets the drop.. and the empire have no qualms on blowing the shit out of you for no reason at all. the enterprise has to be provoked before it will go on the offensive.
as much as we all hate it .. the evil dudes win the day.. even though we might root for the good guys
jxspyder
10-20-2012, 22:57
Okay, since you keep bringing up the A-Wing, obviously we're talking about the Executer. Darth Vader's flagship, Super Star Destroyer. And just so we're clear, you're talking the maybe 1 kilometer USS Enterprise against the 19 kilometer Executor.
Anyway, moving on.
First off, that A-wing you keep bringing up didn't shoot down the Executor. It crashed in to the bridge after the entire Rebel fleet took out it's shields. Because it took the entire Rebel fleet to do so in a manner that would allow it to be damaged. The USS Enterprise doesn't outgun the entire Rebel Navy. Ergo, it's incapable of penetrating the shields and doing significant enough damage to incapacitate the Executor, before it would roll and present new shields. Unfortunately, the Executor has enough firepower to on it's own to glass an entire planet in a matter of hours. A single volley would be enough to drop the Enterprise in it's tracks, leaving nothing but rapidly cooling molten goo. Which doesn't include 2 wings (12 squadrons) of starfighters it normally carries around. Nor the fact that it could load an Imperial Star Destroyer in it's hanger if necessary.
Again, we're talking the Narada versus the entire Federation fleet. We've already seen how that ends up. This would be no different.
Ok at this point you must think I ENJOY disagreeing with you. LoL :p Still, I do not believe that any of those wings of TIE fighters (which don't have shields) would damage the shields of the Enterprise. The Federation simply has better tech. And she may be a bit on the big side, but she's maneuverable as hell. Enterprise could absolutely tackle the SD, beat down her shields with photon torpedoes and turn it into a giant flaming triangle. All the Enterprise has to do is shoot out the shield generators and blast the bridge....like that A-Wing did.
And as far as crew goes, when have any members of the Empire been competent? I mean unless your gonna say Admiral Thrawn is commanding her. But I'd pit Kirk, Picard hell, even Sisco against the Empires best and brightest. Yea Han is good. I never heard of those other guys you mentioned....
Pulling this over now :p
Actually, TIE Defenders do have shields. And Star Destroyers can carry pretty much any configuration of fighters. And even if we go old-school, the Enterprise simply doesn't have the guns to defend itself against 144 ships that are a bit smaller than it's own shuttles, as well as do damage to a capital ship. 12 squadrons of starfighters putting constant wear on the shields, which includes a couple of squadrons of bombers.....which will absolutely do damage.
And how do you plan on getting to those shield generators....when you don't have the firepower to get through the shields in the first place?
Also, how does the Federation have the better tech?
And finally, you should pick up a book sometime. :p Not every admiral in the Empire was like Ozzel. Palleaon was Thrawn's number 2. He helped reform the Empire. Thrawn was a tactical genius. If you don't know who Admiral Ackbar is, your geek license is hereby revoked. Rogriss was an Imperial officer who headed up the Empire's fleet against Zsinj. He was the Imperial equivalent of Solo.
Anyway, this is really scattered, since I was typing this out in between turns on Civilizations.
iamthesgt
10-20-2012, 23:19
Okay, since you keep bringing up the A-Wing, obviously we're talking about the Executer. Darth Vader's flagship, Super Star Destroyer. And just so we're clear, you're talking the maybe 1 kilometer USS Enterprise against the 19 kilometer Executor.
Anyway, moving on.
...bla bla bla...
And finally, you should pick up a book sometime. :p Not every admiral in the Empire was like Ozzel. Palleaon was Thrawn's number 2. He helped reform the Empire. Thrawn was a tactical genius. If you don't know who Admiral Ackbar is, your geek license is hereby revoked. Rogriss was an Imperial officer who headed up the Empire's fleet against Zsinj. He was the Imperial equivalent of Solo.
Anyway, this is really scattered, since I was typing this out in between turns on Civilizations.
Agree with this. Also, not sure how the Federation would beam a crew into the bridge...I would venture a guess that you couldn't beam someone through shields (or else you could just beam a bomb through the shield). Additionally, realize that in the movies, the empire runs into a hell of a lot of bad luck and a lot of good luck on the side of the good guys. Don't assume it would happen all the time.
...and Thrawn would turn the Enterprise into meat if he ever saw any Earth art.
Shadowdawn
10-20-2012, 23:47
The Empire also has people like Daala and the Fel family while the Enterprise has a lot of red shirts. My point is the Empire is not made up entirely of idiots and Starfleet is not filled with Kirk/Spock/Janeway types.
River_Rat_459
10-21-2012, 06:13
I'm definitely enjoying this back-and-forth.
http://9thcivic.com/gallery/albums/post/Popcorn_02_Stephen_Colbert.gif
Well since you upped the ante by turning a Star Destroyer into Vaders Super Star Destroyer, I'll up it to the latest version of the Enterprise. Which with all her bells and whistles....
And how DONT you think the Federation has better tech?
No, I don't know all those characters you guys read about in the bajillion SW books that have been written. Yes, I know who Ackbar is...come on now.
And I'm happy you guys keep throwing out Thrawn. Your making the same "He's a Tactical genius" case that I made about Batman...and what happened to him again? Yea, he died...
The Empire also has people like Daala and the Fel family while the Enterprise has a lot of red shirts. My point is the Empire is not made up entirely of idiots and Starfleet is not filled with Kirk/Spock/Janeway types.
This may be true, but I'd put money on the Federation being more competent.
Agree with this. Also, not sure how the Federation would beam a crew into the bridge...I would venture a guess that you couldn't beam someone through shields (or else you could just beam a bomb through the shield). Additionally, realize that in the movies, the empire runs into a hell of a lot of bad luck and a lot of good luck on the side of the good guys. Don't assume it would happen all the time.
...and Thrawn would turn the Enterprise into meat if he ever saw any Earth art.
They've beamed they shields multiple times. (Multi-phasic field variations...or something like that) I'm sure they could find the appropriate shield freq and beam right thru it. Cake.
And as for the Crew comparison. There is no contest. You bring up Vader and the Force, but what if they meet in "our" universe? Where there is no Force to tap into?
Plus, if we're talking the Enterprise-D/E here, they outsmarted Q! And Q is...well, he's pretty much God.
And yea, those squadrons of fighters may delay the Enterprise for a bit but with the best shielding the Federation AND The Vulcan Science Academy have ever designed coupled with over 20 different phaser arrays, not to mention multiple different types of torpedo configurations and the most cutting edge experimental computer targeting system in existence...I'm pretty sure she can handle a little target practice. To echo your Iron Man argument Dave (and the rest of you), Tech wins right?
iamthesgt
10-21-2012, 11:19
Ooh, dang. A quad post!!!
The difference between the Batman tactical genius case and the Thrawn tactical genius case is that Thrawn had similar or less inferior tech. Thus, the small difference was 'fixable' into big wins. Also, how do we know that Federation shields would stop EU weapons?? Sure, they can block phasers and all, but can they block turbolasers?
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
An if I'm getting the just of your argument, your basically saying bigger is better here....when EVE taught me different....
Also, how do we know that Federation shields would stop EU weapons?? Sure, they can block phasers and all, but can they block turbolasers?Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2You answered your own question Sam. Turbo...lasers. The Federation has moved beyond "laser tech", where as the Empire has not. Seen here:"Since light is composed of both particles (photons) and waves, a laser is essentially a "coherent beam" of light in which all the particles/photons travel in a single direction (a laser "beam"). The "phaser" was an advancement that took it a step further and supposedly got all of the particles to move "in phase" essentially meaning all the photons moved in a single "coherent wave" of "in-phase" particles, thus a "phaser".
jxspyder
10-21-2012, 14:05
Well since you upped the ante by turning a Star Destroyer into Vaders Super Star Destroyer, I'll up it to the latest version of the Enterprise. Which with all her bells and whistles....
And how DONT you think the Federation has better tech?
No, I don't know all those characters you guys read about in the bajillion SW books that have been written. Yes, I know who Ackbar is...come on now.
And I'm happy you guys keep throwing out Thrawn. Your making the same "He's a Tactical genius" case that I made about Batman...and what happened to him again? Yea, he died...
Actually, I didn't. You did. I'll rebut when I get home.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw
Actually, I didn't. You did. I'll rebut when I get home.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw
No I was merely drawing the comparison that if an A-wing fighter can bring down a SSD, then surely the Enterprise can tackle a regular Star Destroyer. I never mentioned the Executer, you did
iamthesgt
10-21-2012, 16:59
No I was merely drawing the comparison that if an A-wing fighter can bring down a SSD, then surely the Enterprise can tackle a regular Star Destroyer. I never mentioned the Executer, you did
And it has already been proven that the only reason the A-wing accomplished that was because the entire Rebel fleet was firing on the Executor...
And as far as lasers/phasers go, I don't know much about phasers, but light is not made up of particles and waves, it has properties of both, but it is not "composed of" both. Big difference.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
And it has already been proven that the only reason the A-wing accomplished that was because the entire Rebel fleet was firing on the Executor...
And I gave you that, seeing as I didn't know SD's had any type of energy shielding.
And as far as lasers/phasers go, I don't know much about phasers, but light is not made up of particles and waves, it has properties of both, but it is not "composed of" both. Big difference.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Maybe it's not totally composed of both, cause I'm pretty certain light is composed of radiation, but it still doesn't change the end result of my statement. The Empire taking on the Federation is like a P-51 taking on an F-16.
I think you all arguing the wrong semantics of the issue. First off the The Empire was defeated by a bunch of rag bag rebels and a kid who works on water evaporators in the dessert and shoots womp rats in the spare time. When ever has the Federation been defeated completely.. Yes they lost a few battles but they still won in the end. Now when you start to compare the Enterprise vs a Star Destroyer, They only ever had to make 6 Enterprises (not counting alternate time lines, mirrior universes or the Scott Bakula version)....Why so few because its badass from the start...How many Star Destroyers have to be made so they can be blown up by rebel forces???
I think you all arguing the wrong semantics of the issue. First off the The Empire was defeated by a bunch of rag bag rebels and a kid who works on water evaporators in the dessert and shoots womp rats in the spare time. When ever has the Federation been defeated completely.. Yes they lost a few battles but they still won in the end. Now when you start to compare the Enterprise vs a Star Destroyer, They only ever had to make 6 Enterprises (not counting alternate time lines, mirrior universes or the Scott Bakula version)....Why so few because its badass from the start...How many Star Destroyers have to be made so they can be blown up by rebel forces???
To add to this, every time the Enterprise was destroyed it was the decision of the crew, no enemy has ever blasted an Enterprise out of space. Many a SD has become so much space junk at the hands of its enemy
Plus, I mean, have you SEEN the USS Enterprise-F? It's sheer genius!
jxspyder
10-21-2012, 18:53
No I was merely drawing the comparison that if an A-wing fighter can bring down a SSD, then surely the Enterprise can tackle a regular Star Destroyer. I never mentioned the Executer, you did
The A-Wing didn't bring down it down, though. Crashing into the Death Star before the back-up command center could be activated did.
You're point is based on a flawed analogy.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw
iamthesgt
10-21-2012, 19:08
Maybe it's not totally composed of both, cause I'm pretty certain light is composed of radiation, but it still doesn't change the end result of my statement. The Empire taking on the Federation is like a P-51 taking on an F-16.
Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation, yes. From reading up on phasers, it seems that all it is doing is changing the frequency of the beam so as to damage in several different EM regions. As such, I am assuming that the shields on the Executor would react to phasers the same way they would to lasers - be slowly drained by them until they were depleted.
And yes, it would be like a P-51 taking on an F-16, except the F-16 in this case is the Empire. Most of this is sourced from the memory alpha and wookiepedia wikis, but here's my analysis:
Enterprise (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701))had nine dual-phaser banks (18 phasers total), each with an output of 500 gigajoules (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phase_cannon#Yield) (Total output: 5.0 x 10^10 J). A Joule is 1 Watt/s. The Executor had shields that had output of 3.8 x 10^26 W (3.8 x 10^26 J in 1 second). If all the phasers were firing simultaneously, it would take them 7.6 x 10^15 seconds of continuous firing (which I hope you agree is not realistic to have them continuously firing for long periods) to bring down the shields (I'm neglecting the Enterprise's torpedoes based on the assumption that their torpedoes would be roughly negated by the torpedoes on the Executor/torpedoes on the attacking fighter craft). That is 240,994,419 years. I think the Executor would have destroyed the Enterprises in that time period. (EDIT: Do the calculations below, and the Executor would take 69 years to destroy the Enterprise with turbolasers alone. So we assume that proton/photon torpedoes would have done most of the work. The reason all these calculations were done with lasers/phasers is because that is where the argument lay earlier)
The Executor's (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor-class_Star_Dreadnought)armament consisted of 2,000 Turbolaser cannons fire-linked in groups of 8 and 2,000 Heavy turbolaser cannons also fire-linked in groups of 8. I can't find any canon sources for their power output, but according to this well-thought out article (http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html), each turbolaser on an ISD (presumably the same type of turbolaser on the Executor) has an estimated output of 30 Terajoules (3.0 x 10^13 J). That is orders of magnitude higher than the Enterprise's phaser banks. The shield on a Constitution-class starship could take the equivalent of 90 proton torpedoes at once. According to calculations I made from sources here (http://www.st-v-sw.net/Obsidian/Martin/photontorpedo.htm), here (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Photon_torpedo), and here (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Isoton), each proton torpedo has a yield of about 1.92 x 10^17 J. Thus, the Constitution's shields could sustain damage of 1.73 x 10^19 J.
So summing up:
Enterprise total weapon output: 5.0E10 J
Executor total weapon output: 8.0E16 J (assuming the 30 TJ figure is for a heavy turbolaser, and a "normal" turbolaser is 10 TJ)
Winner: Executor, by 1,600,000 times
Enterprise total shield capacity: 1.73E19 J
Executor total shield capacity: 3.8E26 J
Winner: Executor, by 22,017,180 times
Executor >>>> Enterprise.
iamthesgt
10-21-2012, 19:37
And remember the size difference (i.e. the Executor can carry some ISDs on board in hangars).
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(I couldn't find the actual movie shot where it happened).
So the Enterprise might also have to deal with 2+ ISDs as well, which have significant damage output and shield strength as well. Not going to do the calculations now, but they would certainly do some damage, if not being able to destroy the Enterprise.
Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation, yes. From reading up on phasers, it seems that all it is doing is changing the frequency of the beam so as to damage in several different EM regions. As such, I am assuming that the shields on the Executor would react to phasers the same way they would to lasers - be slowly drained by them until they were depleted.
And yes, it would be like a P-51 taking on an F-16, except the F-16 in this case is the Empire. Most of this is sourced from the memory alpha and wookiepedia wikis, but here's my analysis:
Enterprise (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701))had nine dual-phaser banks (18 phasers total), each with an output of 500 gigajoules (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phase_cannon#Yield) (Total output: 5.0 x 10^10 J). A Joule is 1 Watt/s. The Executor had shields that had output of 3.8 x 10^26 W (3.8 x 10^26 J in 1 second). If all the phasers were firing simultaneously, it would take them 7.6 x 10^15 seconds of continuous firing (which I hope you agree is not realistic to have them continuously firing for long periods) to bring down the shields (I'm neglecting the Enterprise's torpedoes based on the assumption that their torpedoes would be roughly negated by the torpedoes on the Executor/torpedoes on the attacking fighter craft). That is 240,994,419 years. I think the Executor would have destroyed the Enterprises in that time period. (EDIT: Do the calculations below, and the Executor would take 69 years to destroy the Enterprise with turbolasers alone. So we assume that proton/photon torpedoes would have done most of the work. The reason all these calculations were done with lasers/phasers is because that is where the argument lay earlier)
The Executor's (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor-class_Star_Dreadnought)armament consisted of 2,000 Turbolaser cannons fire-linked in groups of 8 and 2,000 Heavy turbolaser cannons also fire-linked in groups of 8. I can't find any canon sources for their power output, but according to this well-thought out article (http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html), each turbolaser on an ISD (presumably the same type of turbolaser on the Executor) has an estimated output of 30 Terajoules (3.0 x 10^13 J). That is orders of magnitude higher than the Enterprise's phaser banks. The shield on a Constitution-class starship could take the equivalent of 90 proton torpedoes at once. According to calculations I made from sources here (http://www.st-v-sw.net/Obsidian/Martin/photontorpedo.htm), here (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Photon_torpedo), and here (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Isoton), each proton torpedo has a yield of about 1.92 x 10^17 J. Thus, the Constitution's shields could sustain damage of 1.73 x 10^19 J.
So summing up:
Enterprise total weapon output: 5.0E10 J
Executor total weapon output: 8.0E16 J (assuming the 30 TJ figure is for a heavy turbolaser, and a "normal" turbolaser is 10 TJ)
Winner: Executor, by 1,600,000 times
Enterprise total shield capacity: 1.73E19 J
Executor total shield capacity: 3.8E26 J
Winner: Executor, by 22,017,180 times
Executor >>>> Enterprise.
Lol so this is what it's like arguing with a Professor....
iamthesgt
10-21-2012, 19:47
Lol so this is what it's like arguing with a Professor....
Lol...I actually made an error. It would only take the Executor 216 seconds to destroy the Enterprise (making the incorrect assumption for argumentation's sake I made earlier that all could be brought to bear simulataneously)...one of the heavy turbolasers could do it by itself in less than 7 days. So Executor absolutely crushes the Enterprise...
Well Sam, you've proven that the Executor can pretty much decimate the Enterprise....but that isn't what this argument is about. It was originally about the Enterprise vs. a Star Destroyer, not a SUPER Star Destroyer. Well proven points though, very well proven.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/22/qy2yzu9u.jpg
That's not the Executor...right?
iamthesgt
10-21-2012, 20:03
Well Sam, you've proven that the Executor can pretty much decimate the Enterprise....but that isn't what this argument is about. It was originally about the Enterprise vs. a Star Destroyer, not a SUPER Star Destroyer. Well proven points though, very well proven.
Okiedokie. From earlier:
Enterprise total weapon output: 5.0E10 J
Enterprise total shield capacity: 1.73E19 J
Assuming we are referring to an Imperial-I Star Destroyer (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_I-class_Star_Destroyer), then the shielding is "only" 7.73E24 J.
Weapondry (turbolasers listed only):
6x Dual heavy turbolaser turrets
2x Quad heavy turbolasers
3x Triple medium turbolasers
2x Medium turbolasers
60x Taim & Bak XX-9 heavy turbolasers
That's 80 heavy turbolasers and 11 medium turbolasers. Using the estimates from before of 3.0E13 J for heavy and 1.0E13 J for medium/regular, we get a total output of 2.51E15 J. So that's enough to take down the Enterprise's shields in about 1.9 hours, while the ISD's shields would hold for 4,902,333 years. Game over for the Enterprise.
If we want to extend this to Empire vs Federation, this source (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Industry/Industry1.html) implies the Federation fleet strength at "a few thousand" capital ships (about the level of the Enterprise), while the Imperial Navy (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy) had over 25,000 Star Destroyers and "Millions" of total ships. Presumably, there were thousands more of smaller capital ships that could match up with the Enterprise. Safe to say the Federation has no chance.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/22/qy2yzu9u.jpg
That's not the Executor...right?
That is not the Executor, I was just going off the previous arguments which were referencing the Executor. My money is still on the ISD.
And remember the size difference (i.e. the Executor can carry some ISDs on board in hangars).
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(I couldn't find the actual movie shot where it happened).
So the Enterprise might also have to deal with 2+ ISDs as well, which have significant damage output and shield strength as well. Not going to do the calculations now, but they would certainly do some damage, if not being able to destroy the Enterprise.
Only because you want to compare sizes.... The enterprise has taken on things quite bigger and more powerful, won and survived... Proof...
4237
iamthesgt
10-21-2012, 20:30
Only because you want to compare sizes.... The enterprise has taken on things quite bigger and more powerful, won and survived.
The size comparison was purely to show that if we were talking about the Executor, then the Enterprise might have to take on the Executor AND some ISDs. Since we are now talking about only Enterprise vs ISD, then I won't bring up size. I'm sure the Enterprise has taken on bigger things, but in Star Wars, bigger isn't always better either. Arguing from pure power here.
So as stated earlier, if the Empire is so formidable, how the hell did they lose to a Motley Crüe of "Rebel Scum"?
The fact is this, the Federation is WAY more powerful and organized than the Rebellion and they beat the Empire.
And, all specs aside, I still say the Enterprise would tear that ISD a new one....
iamthesgt
10-21-2012, 21:00
So as stated earlier, if the Empire is so formidable, how the hell did they lose to a Motley Crüe of "Rebel Scum"?
The fact is this, the Federation is WAY more powerful and organized than the Rebellion and they beat the Empire.
Uhhh...source that, I dare you. The Empire lost due to a combination of reasons...infighting, overreaching, loss of power at the top, and often, just plain bad luck. But I don't see how you can say that the Federation is WAY more powerful. I can't find a source for the number of capital ships the Alliance possessed, but I'm pretty sure it was in the hundreds. And the Mon Cal Cruisers were the match for an ISD, which I've already shown is orders of magnitude more powerful than a single Enterprise.
And, all specs aside, I still say the Enterprise would tear that ISD a new one....
Feel free to believe that. I don't see how you can explain the gap in sheer power of thousands of times. I don't care what kind of a tactical genius you are, if you have a rowboat and a BB gun, you are not going to sink the USS Nimitz.
I thought there was no such thing as luck in the Star Wars universe....
And the Enterprise is hardly a row boat. It's the single most technologically advanced warship in the Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire, hell, all of 'em.
Plus, it also bested the Borg cube, which in terms of tech and size was far superior.
I'll give you the argument cause you have math on your side, but your comparisons are all wrong. Row boat vs. the Nimitz? No. The Federations tech is still better. They only lose because they don't build ships that big. It's basically like 200 Colonial Infantrymen vs. 1 Navy Seal. Yea, he loses, but only because of the numbers.
iamthesgt
10-21-2012, 21:17
I thought there was no such thing as luck in the Star Wars universe....
And the Enterprise is hardly a row boat. It's the single most technologically advanced warship in the Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire, hell, all of 'em.
Plus, it also bested the Borg cube, which in terms of tech and size was far superior.
It may be the best tech in the Star Trek universe, but how do we know how the tech stacks up in the Star Wars universe? We don't.
I'll give you the argument cause you have math on your side, but your comparisons are all wrong. Row boat vs. the Nimitz? No. The Federations tech is still better. They only lose because they don't build ships that big. It's basically like 200 Colonial Infantrymen vs. 1 Navy Seal. Yea, he loses, but only because of the numbers.
Again, I don't think the tech is necessarily better. According to power output, 1 turbolaser is more powerful than the entire Enterprise. I think based on that, my analogy is pretty darn good.
Shadowdawn
10-21-2012, 21:31
So as stated earlier, if the Empire is so formidable, how the hell did they lose to a Motley Crüe of "Rebel Scum"?
The fact is this, the Federation is WAY more powerful and organized than the Rebellion and they beat the Empire.
And, all specs aside, I still say the Enterprise would tear that ISD a new one....
At the start of the Legacy of the Force series the Empire is still around and Still has countless troops, ships and something like 8 sectors under its control. Several leaders of the Gallactic Alliance were loyal members of the Empire and still have that mindset(including the Chief of State) All of that to say this... the Empire was never destroyed. An uneasy truce treaty between the Empire and the Gallactic Alliance exists that stopped open conflict(mostly) and allows trading and what not but neither side surrendered or addmited defeat.
Shadowdawn
10-21-2012, 21:35
I have not finished that series yet and avoid spoilers so that is up to date as of 43.5 ABY
iamthesgt
10-21-2012, 21:36
At the start of the Legacy of the Force series the Empire is still around and Still has countless troops, ships and something like 8 sectors under its control. Several leaders of the Gallactic Alliance were loyal members of the Empire and still have that mindset(including the Chief of State) All of that to say this... the Empire was never destroyed. An uneasy truce treaty between the Empire and the Gallactic Alliance exists that stopped open conflict(mostly) and allows trading and what not but neither side surrendered or admired defeat.
Excellent point. After the emperor died, the Empire fragmented and was never the same, but still possessed plenty of power. Widespread rebellion can take down the biggest of governments, and there was enough instability that more and more became drawn to the promise of freedom. It was an avalanche - at the top, it was a few snowflakes, but the further down it rolled, it got bigger and bigger until it crushed everything in it's path.
But Havok, you're throwing out red herrings. You can't denigrate the technical capability of one thing in a universe where it was destroyed by another thing in that same universe and say "see - it's not that good" just because it met its match. That doesn't mean it is still more than a match for something out of universe.
iamthesgt
10-21-2012, 21:37
I have not finished that series yet and avoid spoilers so that is up to date as of 43.5 ABY
So what book is that? I don't anticipate any of that becoming relevant to the conversation, though.
Shadowdawn
10-21-2012, 21:44
So what book is that? I don't anticipate any of that becoming relevant to the conversation, though.
Outcast, Omen and Abyss
comanche_warior
10-21-2012, 21:51
I have to agree with iamthesgt on this one the Empire would whoop the Federation in a fight. The Empire is far more advanced than the Federation, I think the Rebels can have a good chance at defeating the Federation.
jxspyder
10-22-2012, 00:03
Only because you want to compare sizes.... The enterprise has taken on things quite bigger and more powerful, won and survived... Proof...
4237
The Enterprise didn't destroy the Narada. A black hole in the middle occasional it did. Or did you forget how the Narada destroyed the entire Federation fleet an hour previously in that same movie? As well as 40? Klingon warbirds in a previous battle.
Why do people keep ignoring these things?
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw
jxspyder
10-22-2012, 00:10
So as stated earlier, if the Empire is so formidable, how the hell did they lose to a Motley Crüe of "Rebel Scum"?
The fact is this, the Federation is WAY more powerful and organized than the Rebellion and they beat the Empire.
And, all specs aside, I still say the Enterprise would tear that ISD a new one....
Overconfidence. That and the "Rebel Scum" was either not overwhelmingly unmatched, had superior intelligence gathering, or exploited bad designs.
And the fact is, not only is that false....but the Empire was never destroyed. Based on simple numbers provided, the Empire's weaponry severely outclasses the Federation's. To such a magnitude that it would mean your 100 Federation minutemen would be facing the Empire's version of multiple S.E.A.L. teams. It would appear that the only thing the Federation has going for it over the Empire is a transporter. And green-skinned redheads who are smoking hot. As opposed to Twi-leks.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw
There's just no arguing with Star Wars nerds...lol
You've all proven your points rather well. I mean, who can argue with Prof. Sam throwing out fucking algebraic formulas and shit?!
I can admit defeat...this time.
PS. The Enterprise looks COOLER! :p
Oh and thanks for the backup Loakii, at least SOMEBODY agreed with me.
The Enterprise didn't destroy the Narada. A black hole in the middle occasional it did. Or did you forget how the Narada destroyed the entire Federation fleet an hour previously in that same movie? As well as 40? Klingon warbirds in a previous battle.
Why do people keep ignoring these things?
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw
Your right the black hole did, but your missing the point that Enterprise is so bad ass, that its the only ship to survive the skirmish or did you ignore that...How did they win....By being a bad ass crew that were in multiple location, I mean look the Red shirt Engineer was able to beam 3 people, from 2 locations, on to 1 platform just as the final death blow was given to Narada....Just imagine what they would do to a Star Destroyer. The Enterprise isn't just about the ship but the crew who wields it to win.. We have seen what type of crews wield the Star Destroyer, and lose to rebels.
Oh and thanks for the backup Loakii, at least SOMEBODY agreed with me.
Anytime I love both. but I do have a a slighter alliance to Star Trek
iamthesgt
10-22-2012, 08:17
I'm not going to lie, a transporter could be very inconvenient to fight against IF they could beam through the enemy's shields. But I don't think it would be enough to overcome the power differential, unless they happened to be able to plant a bomb in the ISD's reactor.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
toby2533
10-22-2012, 08:35
Ok I'm just throwing this out there I don't think either could take on a Warhammer 40k Battleship
4242
I'm not going to lie, a transporter could be very inconvenient to fight against IF they could beam through the enemy's shields. But I don't think it would be enough to overcome the power differential, unless they happened to be able to plant a bomb in the ISD's reactor.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
I thought of that too actually. If they could figure out the phase variance of Borg shielding, maybe they could do the same with Empire tech. But then, they'd have what, 216 seconds to figure that out?
The Enterprise-F is the largest ship the Federation has ever built, even so, it's not that big compared to ISD's
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/22/saje5yra.jpg
iamthesgt
10-22-2012, 09:11
Ok I'm just throwing this out there I don't think either could take on a Warhammer 40k Battleship
4242
I looked it up, and I can find no hard numbers as to the specs of an Emperor-class Battleship (pictured). So who knows?
Now what about a UNSC ship from HALO? Unfortunately, I think they would be toast due to lack of energy shielding, but a single MAC round produces 243 TJ of energy (2.43E14). Even though this is still more powerful than the weapons on the Enterprise, it would take 71,000 rounds to take down the shields.
Of course, if the Enterprise tried to attack earth and ran into a 'Super MAC'...game over in 1 hit. Those produce 194.7 EJ (1.95E20 J) of energy. The Executor might still be able to take earth, though.
This leads to an interesting point. Covenant shield technology can withstand 2 MAC rounds before breaking (the 3rd round destroys the ship). So both Federation and Galactic Empire Shields are light-years ahead of Covenant shield technology. But an ISD's turbolaser output is only the equivalent of 10 MAC rounds. There are some serious discrepancies there.
I thought of that too actually. If they could figure out the phase variance of Borg shielding, maybe they could do the same with Empire tech. But then, they'd have what, 216 seconds to figure that out?
Yep. Not betting on them having enough time to do that. Maybe after several battles, but by then they're in real bad shape as a fleet.
CrzyChinook
10-22-2012, 09:12
They going to do a show? Or novel only with the F model?
Sent from my Xoom sitting by the Kandahar Poo Pond via CSS-VSAT
toby2533
10-22-2012, 09:19
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Battleship
here you go once here pick the battleship you want to read about
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy is a link about the imperial navy
iamthesgt
10-22-2012, 09:31
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Battleship
here you go once here pick the battleship you want to read about
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy is a link about the imperial navy
Yeah I did that. There's no numbers on shielding or weapons, just general facts which don't help to compare to an out-of-universe item.
comanche_warior
10-22-2012, 10:07
Ok what about the Empire v. the Covenant? They both have comparable weapons, and the sheer mass of their armies would be a good match for both sides.
jxspyder
10-22-2012, 10:35
Your right the black hole did, but your missing the point that Enterprise is so bad ass, that its the only ship to survive the skirmish or did you ignore that...How did they win....By being a bad ass crew that were in multiple location, I mean look the Red shirt Engineer was able to beam 3 people, from 2 locations, on to 1 platform just as the final death blow was given to Narada....Just imagine what they would do to a Star Destroyer. The Enterprise isn't just about the ship but the crew who wields it to win.. We have seen what type of crews wield the Star Destroyer, and lose to rebels.
No, I'm not missing the fact that it survived. It survived because Nero wanted it to. Not because it was a superior ship, or because of the skill of its crew. And the only reason it survived later on was because Kirk took advantage of Nero's obsession.
And please, Montgomery Scott is far more than some random redshirt. Even implying as much should get your nerd-card revoked.
And what would they do to a Star Destroyer? Aside from give it target practice?
We have seen what type of crews command Star Destroyers. Many of them are exceptional. More to the point, why are you implying that the Rebel Alliance are in some way a joke? The Emperor felt the same way......and look what happened to him.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw
jxspyder
10-22-2012, 10:38
I looked it up, and I can find no hard numbers as to the specs of an Emperor-class Battleship (pictured). So who knows?
Now what about a UNSC ship from HALO? Unfortunately, I think they would be toast due to lack of energy shielding, but a single MAC round produces 243 TJ of energy (2.43E14). Even though this is still more powerful than the weapons on the Enterprise, it would take 71,000 rounds to take down the shields.
Of course, if the Enterprise tried to attack earth and ran into a 'Super MAC'...game over in 1 hit. Those produce 194.7 EJ (1.95E20 J) of energy. The Executor might still be able to take earth, though.
This leads to an interesting point. Covenant shield technology can withstand 2 MAC rounds before breaking (the 3rd round destroys the ship). So both Federation and Galactic Empire Shields are light-years ahead of Covenant shield technology. But an ISD's turbolaser output is only the equivalent of 10 MAC rounds. There are some serious discrepancies there.
Yep. Not betting on them having enough time to do that. Maybe after several battles, but by then they're in real bad shape as a fleet.
Have to factor in the kinetic damage though, which seems to not follow the same rules as energy weapons. Making it a much different fight.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw
iamthesgt
10-22-2012, 10:57
Ok what about the Empire v. the Covenant? They both have comparable weapons, and the sheer mass of their armies would be a good match for both sides.
I will do some research later on that. Gotta study for a test. I suspect Empire would win due to superior shielding.
Have to factor in the kinetic damage though, which seems to not follow the same rules as energy weapons. Making it a much different fight.
That figure is the energy released in Joules. If we're talking about overcoming a shield, all that matters is the energy released into the shield. As such, there is no difference in calculations. Once through the shield, the MAC round would decimate everything due to its kinetic energy, but we're assuming for purposes of argumentation that once the shield is down, the ship is toast.
They going to do a show? Or novel only with the F model?
Sent from my Xoom sitting by the Kandahar Poo Pond via CSS-VSAT
It's featured in Star Trek Online. There may be books in the works
jxspyder
10-22-2012, 12:32
That figure is the energy released in Joules. If we're talking about overcoming a shield, all that matters is the energy released into the shield. As such, there is no difference in calculations. Once through the shield, the MAC round would decimate everything due to its kinetic energy, but we're assuming for purposes of argumentation that once the shield is down, the ship is toast.
I'm just saying that historically items with significant mass have had abnormal/atypical reactions to shield strength. And that 120,000 pounds is pretty significant.
Sent from the muddy banks of the Wishkaw
toby2533
10-22-2012, 15:02
Ok a Nova cannon shooting a several ton warhead at near light speed would have the kinetic energy vast out doing of anything else anywhere.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/1/e/8/1e8440b3262d1866bf61293634e00f19.png where P = momentum and m= mass of a body
iamthesgt
10-22-2012, 15:16
I'm just saying that historically items with significant mass have had abnormal/atypical reactions to shield strength. And that 120,000 pounds is pretty significant.
I've never seen that. Energy imparted is energy received.
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iamthesgt
10-22-2012, 16:59
Ok what about the Empire v. the Covenant? They both have comparable weapons, and the sheer mass of their armies would be a good match for both sides.
Alright. From halo.wikia.com, Covenant shield technology (here talking about the most common capital ship, the CCS-class battlecruiser (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/CCS-class_battlecruiser)) can withstand 2 MAC rounds before breaking (the 3rd round destroys the ship). A single MAC round produces 243 TJ of energy (2.43E14 J). We assume that the second MAC round exactly breaks the shields (the novels have several cases where the second MAC round causes the shields to flutter and then collapse). Thus, Covenant shields can sustain 4.86E14 J of energy.
The armament of a CCS-class battlecruiser is as follows:
Unknown number of Pulse Laser Turret (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Pulse_laser_turret)s, which "Like most Covenant weapons are rated in the kilowatt range. Damages dealt by the pulse laser turrets are known to be serious threats to most, if not all UNSC ships; a pulse laser salvo is capable of melting through 45 cm of Titanium-A battleplate in a single shot". I will have to do some calculations on energy output for this.
Unknown number of Plasma Turrets (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Plasma_turret_(starship)). I have no data on the damage output of these.
1x Energy Projector (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Energy_projector), which against UNSC vessels is able to pierce dozens of centimeters of Titanium-A armor with comparative ease. I will also have to do some calculations on the energy output for this, but in my opinion this is likely to be the only weapon that could do easy damage.
Again referring to an Imperial-I Star Destroyer (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_I-class_Star_Destroyer), we have shielding of 7.73E24 J and total weapons output of 2.51E15 J.
If you don't want to wait for the calculations, check out the arguments in this thread (http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php/12855-The-Covenant-(from-Halo)-vs-The-Empire-(From-Star-Wars)?). I haven't read all the way through, but there's a bunch of arguments for both sides in there.
Also we have to wonder how the Covenants' Seraphs and Banshees would fare against TIE fighters. But that's another analysis altogether.
An as my esteemed colleague Mr. Rieland has pointed out, not all TIE fighters are unshielded...otherwise it would be like popping bubbles out of mid-air....that shoot back at you of course. Lol
iamthesgt
10-22-2012, 19:46
An as my esteemed colleague Mr. Rieland has pointed out, not all TIE fighters are unshielded...otherwise it would be like popping bubbles out of mid-air....that shoot back at you of course. Lol
I have a feeling the Covenant would have a slight advantage here. But not enough to negate their capital ships' comparative lack of shielding.
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comanche_warior
10-22-2012, 20:19
An issue I think is that we have never seen the Covenant use anything other than the main cannon that shoots down. Halo Wars is the only place where we actually see a UNSC and a Covenant cruiser duke it out while broadside. Also dont forget that the Covenant has the Corvettes.
KaNtSt0PMeH
10-22-2012, 21:08
Master Chief would kill everything it doesn't matter...
jxspyder
10-22-2012, 22:12
An issue I think is that we have never seen the Covenant use anything other than the main cannon that shoots down. Halo Wars is the only place where we actually see a UNSC and a Covenant cruiser duke it out while broadside. Also dont forget that the Covenant has the Corvettes.
That's why the books are so awesome. :p
iamthesgt
10-22-2012, 22:28
Master Chief would kill everything it doesn't matter...
Yeah, not quite.
On the ground, the Spartans always won. The problem was, the Spartans couldn’t take their fight into space. Every minor victory on the ground turned into a major defeat in orbit. Soon there would be no more colonies, no human settlements—and nowhere left to run.
KaNtSt0PMeH
10-23-2012, 03:24
With me on the sticks... yes... lol
iamthesgt
12-01-2012, 08:54
So here's one: two armored warriors with years of killing, and hyper-lethal by themselves against overwhelming odds.
Who would win: Master Chief or Boba Fett?
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So here's one: two armored warriors with years of killing, and hyper-lethal by themselves against overwhelming odds.
Who would win: Master Chief or Boba Fett?
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Hmm. I'm going Master Chief on this one even though I'm a huge fan of the Fett
WHIT3C3LL
12-01-2012, 11:39
Boba fett master chief is over rated
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comanche_warior
12-01-2012, 12:18
I say master chief he has better agility than Boba Fett, Boba got eaten my that sand thing, Chief has the shield where Boba doesnt. Chief can use allot of weapons where Boba really only has allot of gadgets. I like Boba dont get me wrong but I think Chief could just flick that jet pack and shoot him into another pit monster.
WHIT3C3LL
12-01-2012, 16:26
Yoda vs jean Claud van dam hmmmm
Sent by some white guy lost in the desert with a green alien
iamthesgt
12-01-2012, 18:35
Hmm. I'm going Master Chief on this one even though I'm a huge fan of the Fett
Boba fett master chief is over rated
Come on guys, you gotta give reasons or else its a lame geek war!
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WHIT3C3LL
12-01-2012, 18:55
Boba fett is a bounty hunter yes he was eaten in return of the Jedi but he has more skills. Master chief has a shield yes but let's take that away from him all he is is an over rated marine that picks up anything he can find to kill something no offense to the marines but still come on where is deadliest warrior when u need it lol
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CrzyChinook
12-01-2012, 21:11
I say master chief he has better agility than Boba Fett, Boba got eaten my that sand thing, Chief has the shield where Boba doesnt. Chief can use allot of weapons where Boba really only has allot of gadgets. I like Boba dont get me wrong but I think Chief could just flick that jet pack and shoot him into another pit monster.
sand thing??? really really? really?(geek cred -1000)... ITS A SARLACC!! and he survived .. ok i give that master chief is a super hyped up steroid junkie that is almost the last of his kind... lots of skill and lots of luck.. but Fett has him hands down... his tenacity to keep going no matter the odds.. even after eaten by the sarlacc he would not give up and die...
MC has being training his whole life.. but never got to put it to any use till he was a adult ...
Fett has been training in the real world is whole life.. his combat prowess alone out shines MC.. hes cunning , smart, and resourcefulness is beyond par!
hand to hand.. yeah MC would win ... but Fett would never be stupid enough .. he size him up and figure out how to take his out from a safe distance
iamthesgt
12-01-2012, 22:47
sand thing??? really really? really?(geek cred -1000)... ITS A SARLACC!! and he survived .. ok i give that master chief is a super hyped up steroid junkie that is almost the last of his kind... lots of skill and lots of luck.. but Fett has him hands down... his tenacity to keep going no matter the odds.. even after eaten by the sarlacc he would not give up and die..
Pretty sure John keeps going no matter the odds. I mean, when he was cut off from all human help, opposed by the flood, the covenant, AND 343 Guilty Spark in Halo: CE, he just kept going and overcame the odds.
MC has being training his whole life.. but never got to put it to any use till he was a adult ...
Fett has been training in the real world is whole life.. his combat prowess alone out shines MC.. hes cunning , smart, and resourcefulness is beyond par!
That is patently untrue. The Master Chief's first mission was at the age of 14, and it was executed almost flawlessly.
hand to hand.. yeah MC would win ... but Fett would never be stupid enough .. he size him up and figure out how to take his out from a safe distance
I don't think you can say that definitively. John is an excellent sniper and tactician as well and can use virtually any piece of human or covenant tech.
KaNtSt0PMeH
12-01-2012, 23:35
Master Chief has decimated entire fleets of enemies.... this should be a no-brainer. Especially if I'm the one controlling him :)
comanche_warior
12-02-2012, 14:00
sand thing??? really really? really?(geek cred -1000)... ITS A SARLACC!! and he survived .. ya the sand thing its been awhile since ive seen star wars give me a break lol
jxspyder
12-02-2012, 14:54
sand thing??? really really? really?(geek cred -1000)... ITS A SARLACC!! and he survived .. ok i give that master chief is a super hyped up steroid junkie that is almost the last of his kind... lots of skill and lots of luck.. but Fett has him hands down... his tenacity to keep going no matter the odds.. even after eaten by the sarlacc he would not give up and die...
Agree with the loss of geek cred.....wtf, over?
Disagree with the analysis however. Tenacity to keep going no matter the odds.......like taking on an alien race and superzombies, and saving all of humanity, practically solo?
MC has being training his whole life.. but never got to put it to any use till he was a adult ...
Already been mentioned, but this is wrong. Not only did he have near perfect missions before he's 18, but at the age of 9 he's leading near-lethal training missions against veteran units. He's been developing and using his skills from childhood.
Fett has been training in the real world is whole life.. his combat prowess alone out shines MC.. hes cunning , smart, and resourcefulness is beyond par!
Negative again ghostrider. Fett's combat experience begins in his mid-teens. MC's as a child. Somebody's training and experience outshines the other, but you've got that backwards.
hand to hand.. yeah MC would win ... but Fett would never be stupid enough .. he size him up and figure out how to take his out from a safe distance
There is no safe distance, though.
The only way Fett wins here is if Karen Traviss is writing the story.
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iamthesgt
12-02-2012, 16:01
The only way Fett wins here is if Karen Traviss is writing the story.
Lol!
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Didn't Fett defeat Vader once though? That's some serious cred right there....
I'd personally like to see a duel with Fett using his Lightsaber(yea, he owns one) and MC with the Covenant Blade....
iamthesgt
12-03-2012, 06:47
I'd personally like to see a duel with Fett using his Lightsaber(yea, he owns one) and MC with the Covenant Blade....
That would be pretty cool. I wonder if they can stop each other. I think both are described as a blade of "pure energy", so maybe.
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jxspyder
12-03-2012, 16:27
Didn't Fett defeat Vader once though? That's some serious cred right there....
It's non-canon.
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It's non-canon.
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Sooooo it didn't happen?
iamthesgt
12-03-2012, 21:26
Sooooo it didn't happen?
Well I would consider it not to have happened. But some people would say it did. "Officially" it did not.
jxspyder
12-03-2012, 21:33
Sooooo it didn't happen?
Basically.
There are two encounters between the two. The one that everyone talks about is the non-canon one where Fett pulls a lightsaber. Then they forget that he basically gets his ass handed to him, both before and after.
The second one is similar to the Obi-Wan / Jango Fett fight.....where Fett is trying to kill his opponent, while Vader is trying to get a chest Fett has.....without damaging or injuring it in any way.
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iamthesgt
12-03-2012, 21:56
The second one is similar to the Obi-Wan / Jango Fett fight.....where Fett is trying to kill his opponent, while Vader is trying to get a chest Fett has.....without damaging or injuring it in any way.
I don't remember this one. Where did that appear?
jxspyder
12-04-2012, 01:31
I don't remember this one. Where did that appear?
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090823131026/starwars/images/7/7a/Bobafett_enemytpb.jpg
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iamthesgt
12-04-2012, 06:39
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090823131026/starwars/images/7/7a/Bobafett_enemytpb.jpg
Never read that. Is it a comic?
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jxspyder
12-04-2012, 08:13
Never read that. Is it a comic?
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Yes.
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iamthesgt
12-04-2012, 08:22
Yes.
That's why I didn't recognize it then
MuleTheDestroyer
12-04-2012, 11:31
I think that this battle would be determined by location and rules. Bobba Fett is a bounty hunter and assasin and he has slave one. If there is no limit to time or resources he would kill Master Chief through sneakery. If it was set up like a death match in any type of arena (like a Halo mutiplayer map) than I give it to Master Chief hands down.
jxspyder
12-04-2012, 11:53
I think that this battle would be determined by location and rules. Bobba Fett is a bounty hunter and assasin and he has slave one. If there is no limit to time or resources he would kill Master Chief through sneakery. If it was set up like a death match in any type of arena (like a Halo mutiplayer map) than I give it to Master Chief hands down.
You're ignoring the books. Master Chief has the USNC at his disposal to counter Slave 1. Both are very good at sneaking and assassination. The only way to compare them is in a duel/fight, Deadliest Warrior style.
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You're ignoring the books. Master Chief has the USNC at his disposal to counter Slave 1. Both are very good at sneaking and assassination. The only way to compare them is in a duel/fight, Deadliest Warrior style.
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In which case MC would win due to his superior genetic construction. He's stronger, faster and more adaptable and intelligent than BF
iamthesgt
12-04-2012, 14:47
In which case MC would win due to his superior genetic construction. He's stronger, faster and more adaptable and intelligent than BF
I agree.
I agree.
What's this? A Showdown where I don't get ganged up on? Surely not....lol
iamthesgt
12-04-2012, 16:09
What's this? A Showdown where I don't get ganged up on? Surely not....lol
We're just softening you up for the next time we beat you down. :cool:
jxspyder
12-04-2012, 16:32
What's this? A Showdown where I don't get ganged up on? Surely not....lol
What's this? A showdown where you show actual sense? Surely not....lol.
:)
I'm with you on this one, though I'm also a Fett fan, as well. Exception Traviss Fett. Him I despise.
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MuleTheDestroyer
12-05-2012, 03:22
You're ignoring the books. Master Chief has the USNC at his disposal to counter Slave 1. Both are very good at sneaking and assassination. The only way to compare them is in a duel/fight, Deadliest Warrior style.
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This is where the problem comes in with the sci-fi vs. sci-fi/fantasy. In the Star Wars universe most of the tech operates, basically, by magic. In sci-fi there are limits set in by what is and isn't physically possible and that severely limits what the USNC is capable of, which is the same problem that Star Wars v. Star Trek runs into. Star Wars ships move at near instantaneous speeds across a galaxy as long as nothing is in their way, weapons are exactly scaled to make battles exciting ranging from uber hyper tech of super effectiveness to merely causing your droid to catch on fire as the writers see fit. Therefore Slave one is more than a match for anything in the USNC arsenal short of a cruiser, and MC can't take that into battle by himself.
So I agree the only way it is a fair comparrison is deadliest warrior style, and Master Chief wins. He then informs Fett that this is his house, and that he should not come into his house with his noobish nonsense. Then he desecrates the corpse through tea-bagging.
CrzyChinook
12-05-2012, 04:15
This is where the problem comes in with the sci-fi vs. sci-fi/fantasy. In the Star Wars universe most of the tech operates, basically, by magic. In sci-fi there are limits set in by what is and isn't physically possible and that severely limits what the USNC is capable of, which is the same problem that Star Wars v. Star Trek runs into. Star Wars ships move at near instantaneous speeds across a galaxy as long as nothing is in their way, weapons are exactly scaled to make battles exciting ranging from uber hyper tech of super effectiveness to merely causing your droid to catch on fire as the writers see fit. Therefore Slave one is more than a match for anything in the USNC arsenal short of a cruiser, and MC can't take that into battle by himself.
So I agree the only way it is a fair comparrison is deadliest warrior style, and Master Chief wins. He then informs Fett that this is his house, and that he should not come into his house with his noobish nonsense. Then he desecrates the corpse through tea-bagging.
you know before last week i had never heard this argument but your the second person ive heard say this.. Sci Fi VS Sci Fantasy.... i never thought about it.. and as much as i like star wars.. yes it is fantasy.. not held down by any rules that we deal in the real world here and now.. and Star Trek is Sci Fi.. based on a set of truths and possibility . i was reading something that said Gene Roddenberry had stated that fact numerous times.. that it had to be possible.. maybe far fetched but in the realm of possibility.. hmm nice food for thought... i like star trek so i can concede to this..
iamthesgt
12-05-2012, 07:35
This is where the problem comes in with the sci-fi vs. sci-fi/fantasy. In the Star Wars universe most of the tech operates, basically, by magic. In sci-fi there are limits set in by what is and isn't physically possible and that severely limits what the USNC is capable of, which is the same problem that Star Wars v. Star Trek runs into. Star Wars ships move at near instantaneous speeds across a galaxy as long as nothing is in their way, weapons are exactly scaled to make battles exciting ranging from uber hyper tech of super effectiveness to merely causing your droid to catch on fire as the writers see fit. Therefore Slave one is more than a match for anything in the USNC arsenal short of a cruiser, and MC can't take that into battle by himself.
So I agree the only way it is a fair comparrison is deadliest warrior style, and Master Chief wins. He then informs Fett that this is his house, and that he should not come into his house with his noobish nonsense. Then he desecrates the corpse through tea-bagging.
I think this is an excellent analysis pitting LucasPhysics against real Physics. +1 for teabag reference.
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jxspyder
12-05-2012, 09:02
This is where the problem comes in with the sci-fi vs. sci-fi/fantasy. In the Star Wars universe most of the tech operates, basically, by magic. In sci-fi there are limits set in by what is and isn't physically possible and that severely limits what the USNC is capable of, which is the same problem that Star Wars v. Star Trek runs into. Star Wars ships move at near instantaneous speeds across a galaxy as long as nothing is in their way, weapons are exactly scaled to make battles exciting ranging from uber hyper tech of super effectiveness to merely causing your droid to catch on fire as the writers see fit. Therefore Slave one is more than a match for anything in the USNC arsenal short of a cruiser, and MC can't take that into battle by himself.
So I agree the only way it is a fair comparrison is deadliest warrior style, and Master Chief wins. He then informs Fett that this is his house, and that he should not come into his house with his noobish nonsense. Then he desecrates the corpse through tea-bagging.
I'd agree if we were talking about Luke Skywalker, or Jedi/Sith versus.......but the non-magic users in Star Wars tend to be just as "grounded in realism" as most other sci-fi. The fantasy part in Star Wars tends to revolve around the Force.
Also, while SW ships are faster, they're in no way even remotely instantaneous.
+2 more for the tea-bagging.
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iamthesgt
12-05-2012, 10:18
I'd agree if we were talking about Luke Skywalker, or Jedi/Sith versus.......but the non-magic users in Star Wars tend to be just as "grounded in realism" as most other sci-fi. The fantasy part in Star Wars tends to revolve around the Force.
Also, while SW ships are faster, they're in no way even remotely instantaneous.
You're right the "normal" people are "grounded in realism", but a lot of their gadgets aren't. Covenant weapondry aside, the Master Chief's immediately-useable weapons are merely iterative improvements in current technologies.
MuleTheDestroyer
12-05-2012, 17:27
I'd agree if we were talking about Luke Skywalker, or Jedi/Sith versus.......but the non-magic users in Star Wars tend to be just as "grounded in realism" as most other sci-fi. The fantasy part in Star Wars tends to revolve around the Force.
Also, while SW ships are faster, they're in no way even remotely instantaneous.
For the speed of Star Wars: if they can get from Tatooine to Coruscant in a matter of days then to go from one system to the next would take a few seconds. For most of the movies it seems like any two points in the galaxy can be traveled between in one day or less, depending on the needs of the plot. Star Wars never really gets into how fast or how powerful any weapon or shield or engine is because they are not important to the story. It would be like explaining how much mana is in Harry Potters wand.
In normal sci-fi much attention gets out into how and why things work. So I can tell you how the warp drive is powered and fueled for the Enterprise. I can also tell you what out there physics ideas are being exploited to make the travel possible. Everything except for how the actual warp bubble is created, which is obviously impossible. Point being sci fi is run by physics and Star Wars by magic the top speed of the Enterprise can be converted into Mph, photon torpedos in mega tons, phasers in electron volts, and so on.
jxspyder
12-05-2012, 19:12
For the speed of Star Wars: if they can get from Tatooine to Coruscant in a matter of days then to go from one system to the next would take a few seconds. For most of the movies it seems like any two points in the galaxy can be traveled between in one day or less, depending on the needs of the plot. Star Wars never really gets into how fast or how powerful any weapon or shield or engine is because they are not important to the story. It would be like explaining how much mana is in Harry Potters wand.
In normal sci-fi much attention gets out into how and why things work. So I can tell you how the warp drive is powered and fueled for the Enterprise. I can also tell you what out there physics ideas are being exploited to make the travel possible. Everything except for how the actual warp bubble is created, which is obviously impossible. Point being sci fi is run by physics and Star Wars by magic the top speed of the Enterprise can be converted into Mph, photon torpedos in mega tons, phasers in electron volts, and so on.
Except that this is, quite simply, not true. Sure it only takes two seconds to get between two systems in the movie......probably because the hours/days in between aren't necessary. Just watch Episode 4. Or better yet, read some of the books. And while they don't spell out every single technical detail, there is quite a bit of detail still involved. So while you don't know exactly how much electricity is used by a lightsaber, you can break down each component in that lightsaber. Or, say, the length, speed, and acceleration of a T-65 X-wing.
And while you're absolutely right that Sci-Fi attempts to detail their tech.....Star Trek isn't exactly the best example. Their consistency is atrocious.
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jxspyder
12-05-2012, 19:45
Then again, there's really only one thing that cements Star Wars as science fantasy, and that's the Force.
Well, that and the plot of the first movie.
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MuleTheDestroyer
12-05-2012, 19:46
Star trek has kind of painted themselves into a corner with some things I will admit to. They did have to throw in some cheasy conventions in order to make things work out. Photon torpeedos are so powerful a single one will destroy any ship that has its shields down or cause a cataclysmic mass extinction if shot at a planet which is why you so rarely hear "full spread maximum yield"
The point with star wars is that the hyperdrive is so fast because it would be impossible to get around the galaxy in a lifetime otherwise. The solution they came up with in the books is that there is always crap in the way so you constantly have to make different jumps and travel through normal space. The problem writers have is the massive scale and distances between stars means ships either have to be ridiculously fast or they can't get around the galaxy in a reasonable time.
Also they power. Components and schematics for star wars are silly. They r as meaningful as a schematic for a magic carpet.
I used a tapatalk
iamthesgt
12-05-2012, 20:36
Except that this is, quite simply, not true. Sure it only takes two seconds to get between two systems in the movie......probably because the hours/days in between aren't necessary. Just watch Episode 4. Or better yet, read some of the books. And while they don't spell out every single technical detail, there is quite a bit of detail still involved. So while you don't know exactly how much electricity is used by a lightsaber, you can break down each component in that lightsaber. Or, say, the length, speed, and acceleration of a T-65 X-wing.
See this: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/hyperspace.html#speed
But speeds in the SW universe are on the order of several million c. Ergo, serious problems with time is caused here. And all the non-realistic behavior makes it clear that Lucas had NO clue about the laws of Physics. I still love them, but it's fantasy, pure and simple.
MuleTheDestroyer
12-05-2012, 21:14
Exactly I.e. the millennium falcon doing The kessel run run under 3 parsecs. Yes I know the books later tried to explain this through black holes warping space.
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iamthesgt
12-06-2012, 07:58
Exactly I.e. the millennium falcon doing The kessel run run under 3 parsecs. Yes I know the books later tried to explain this through black holes warping space.
Yeah...one of the earliest major retcons I believe. Actually IIRC it wasn't so much due to the black hole warping space as it was due to the flying extremely close to the black hole, off the "safe" path.
jxspyder
12-06-2012, 08:44
Yeah...one of the earliest major retcons I believe. Actually IIRC it wasn't so much due to the black hole warping space as it was due to the flying extremely close to the black hole, off the "safe" path.
The faster you travelled, the closer you could get to the black hole cluster without getting pulled in.
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